Taiwan struggle session goes here. Please include sources with your claims if you can.
Even if you don't believe Taiwan has the right of self-determination, Taiwan does not actually pose a legitimate threat to a strong nation like China. Invading it would be an act of expansionism, not self-defense. Military expansionism is bad no matter who is doing it.
I think socialism is the self-emancipation of the working class, which is one reason why we believe in the self-determination of all peoples. Spreading socialism by military force may not be wrong, per se, but if the working class within that country do not lead the revolution within it, the democratic institutions that are necessary to continue the socialist project are either stunted or never formed.
If socialism is in essence the workers' management of the economy, you then cannot by definition force socialism on unwilling workers. The ideological hegemony of capitalists in a country must be subverted with agitation, education, and organization, at least to a point where there is a solid movement of socialists within that country.
Yeah, I think this is one of the flaws of the Soviet model of exporting revolution. No matter how righteous your crusade is, if the revolution isn't home grown then it's so much easier to stoke up reactionary fear about foreign invaders trying to take away your way of life, and that you need to grab a gun to defend your god, government, and flag from the dirty commie invaders.
It's not like the west would've left them in peace regardless, but maybe the red scare propaganda that was used to drum up anti-communist fervor wouldn't have been as effective.
Of course, there are always extenuating circumstances, but there are drawbacks to socialism by force, even in cases where you could make an argument.
Nobody should be spreading anything with military force. You need to defend yourself, fine, but that's a whole different ballgame than invading another country. There is no worse waste of lives, resources, and sanity than war. War is a fuck.
The Soviets needed to keep going to Berlin in order to beat the enemy that had attacked them. It was necessary for self-defense. So did the European members of the Western Allies. America got involved because that's what America does, and it's not super obvious that America's involvement was a good or necessary thing.
There's a difference between a violent revolution in your own country as a means of self-liberation and inflicting military destruction on another country because you think you have the right or prerogative to do so. Socialism is also a humanitarian ideology. How do you reconcile socialism with causing death and misery through an unnecessary war?
Spreading the socialist revolution against reactionary states and territories with the use of military force isn’t inherently wrong.
I won't disagree with you on a moral basis but has this ever worked? (Outside of Germany maybe and I actually need to read more on them to decide). At least invading Czechoslovakia to stop liberalization didn't work out too well (from what I know).
I would not call Tibet a success given the tensions still there 75 years later.
Didn't Tibet have a civil war too with their own leftist guerrilla force? For example this guy (people have recommended reading about this guy's life but I haven't gotten around to that yet :P ) At least his wiki page is fairly interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phuntsok_Wangyal
Rather than worrying about what the PRC will or should do, I think it’s more relevant that the two dominant parties in Taiwan are both corporatist US stooges—the KMT Is anti-communist Chinese nationalism cringe + petit bourgeois grievance of late, whereas the more lib DPP is neocolonialism in Southeast Asia + super pro-Trump cuz of anti-China hysteria; meanwhile, the supposedly "radical" "left wing" "young people" parties are defined not by any working class politics but a hysterical settler-colonial nationalism (and yeah pretty much everyone screws the Indigenous Taiwanese). And the whole topic of "unification vs. independence" in Taiwan political discourse is always framed around the bougie concerns of "access to Chinese market and capital" vs. "Taiwan consciousness/subjectivity."
Probably the best analysis of Taiwan in English — from a somewhat left perspective , mind you it's a bit dated (2010)
And the whole topic of “unification vs. independence” in Taiwan political discourse is always framed around the bougie concerns of “access of Chinese market and capital” vs. “Taiwan consciousness/subjectivity.”
You're forgetting about Chinese Nationalism. A lot of KMT supporters believe that the CPC is fulfilling the goals of Sun Yat Sen, and it's therefore time to make peace with the mainland.
I guess? I don’t find these kinds of voices admitted into the mainstream presses there though (even the more pro-mainland outlets don’t tend to evoke “Three Principles of the People” as much as they talk economics and pop culture stuff). Is it more of a military or military dependents village thing?
It may be. To be clear, I got that from this video. There's also a KMT subreddit that's pro-mainland where I see it argued.
Yeah it's a very minoritarian position afaik and the people who support it are more die hard nationalists more than holding any vision of socialist politics.
Huh, I had read that the KMT believed they were the rightful rulers over all of China, and considered themselves to be a government in exile. I suppose people got tired of wishful thinking.
The continued presence of the Left-KMT as the PRCs second largest party has done a lot to help that along.
Taiwan has a right to self determination.
PRC should decidedly not invade.
Taiwan should self determine whatever their selves determine
Sure, but this wasn't an economic question in the post.
The biggest reason they should not invade is the human reason.
The biggest reason they should not invade is the human reason.
If only countries did geopolitics for these reasons.
this really good Taiwan thread by Xiangyu
https://twitter.com/notXiangyu/status/1348497161433079810
They are trying.
They aren't doing all that great. Mostly pissing off everyone.
Best solution is the abolishment of all states and borders and the uniting of the international working class. States and borders aren't going to make sense in the coming age of climate migration. Or, I guess they will but they'll only be enforced with intense violence and genocide. One world and one working class united together and we can transcend these questions and wonder, "why did we ever argue about this in the first place, comrade?"
In terms of current geopolitics, CPC has a legit claim on Taiwan considering they won the civil war and all, but the indigenous Taiwainese should be asked if they want to actually be part of China or not before any attempt at annexing lol. Securing the first island chain is a good overall strategic goal for China. The threat that Taiwan actually poses China is minimal but as the US continues sabre rattling against China, it's kind of putting pressure on them to shore up that island chain before the US or west pulls some shit - but how capable of a threat or action against China is the US, really? hard to say.
Apparently, Britain had briefly considered handing Hong Kong back to Taiwan rather than CPC. Imagine that shit show.
in terms of current geopolitics
I know you only put the geopolitical argument as an addendum about the internationalism but I want to reiterate its importance.
In terms of what you termed the geopolitical argument (which is not actually geopolitical lol), Russia has a claim to Poland since it controlled it during the Russian empire, Britain has a claim to Northern Ireland, hell you could argue China as a successor state to the Qing has no claim to Taiwan because of the Treaty of Shimonoseki or has a legitimate claim to tributary relationships with the Korean peninsula if you throw away the treaty. I hate these kinds of arguments around claims to territory, they make no sense and only really serve to justify exercises of state power when they are possible, and excuse the lack of state power when they are not. Like seriously considering the notion of "the indigenous Taiwanese should be asked first before annexation" is already capitulating to a vision of state power that we should not entertain as legitimate in the first place (and is wildly out of touch with the opinion of people living in Taiwan as support for annexation is small and getting smaller, and with the opinion of the Chinese state which is sabre rattling itself considering the entanglement that now exists between the SEZs and Taiwan and there is little desire to actually force a resolution to the situation).
Yeah I agree, all of this state stuff needs to be thrown away and swept out of our minds. There's only one international working class and inter-state disputes are bad for us and we can transcend it with socialism. Maybe it would be better to not include anything about it, but I do think it's fun to consider. Like, I like playing FPS games even though they almost always are pro-American war on terror nonsense and I like playing Civilization games even though they codify a vision of world history that I think is fundamentally wrong headed. For the China-Taiwan dispute, it's not a game and real peoples lives are at stake but also I don't think there's a war on the horizon there anyway so I don't feel as guilty doing bad armchair general/strategy stuff.
Taiwan is not a country
Its not what they've historically called themselves and it's not what is on their passports. What is on their passport is the "Republic of China" and the ROC claims the entire mainland (the PRC) and parts of Mongolia/india/japan and Myanmar as their territory.
ROC is a illegitimate state that no one except a handful of pacific Islands recognise and were it not for the White supremacist USA existing the PRC would've rolled over ROC 7 decades ago and the civil war would've ended there
There is currently a hangmans noose around PRC and ROC has been at the forefront of this war against China. Acting in the interests of the international bourgeoisie and principally the USA by being an unsinkable aircraft carrier off the coast of China.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E
The KMT fled to Taiwan massacred the natives (the people who did deserve the right of self determination) then used Taiwan as a base for sabotage, assassination and attempted reinvasion of China all helped by USA. Chiang Kai Shek was gearing up for an invasion as late as the 60s during Chinas famine
As this lib explains (from a lib "taiwan is a free country perspective") that once Taiwan falls it opens up the ocean for the Chinese navy and the ability for US to protect Japan/Korea comes into question and the US alliances will likely fall apart
But there’s more to this than nationalism and identity. Taiwan’s position in the so-called “first island chain” skirting China’s southeast makes it HIGHLY important from a strategic point of view. Controlling it could fatally undermine America’s current power in the region. “If Taiwan falls. If Taiwan were to be occupied by the Chinese military… Analyst Ian Easton wrote a book “The Chinese Invasion Threat” working through these strategic questions. “Then it becomes almost impossible to defend our entire network of treaty allies in the Asia-Pacific. How do we defend Japan from a blockade at that point, or how do we defend South Korea? How do we defend the Philippines? Because at any time they could be invaded from Taiwan if China is there.”
https://youtu.be/VkuNWDG3yNM?t=1107
ROC does not deserve the right of self determination and PRC must take back their territory from the descendants of fascists who then aligned against the majority of Chinese people for 7 decades with the USA. It's just icing on the cake that it destroys USAs entire network of treaty allies in the Asia-pacific :chefs-kiss:
Some accounts need to be settled and the National People’s Congress was completely correct to vote 2896 to zero on the " Republic of China" issue
The idea of self determination for Taiwan is as ridiculous as suggesting the British in Northern Ireland should have the right of self determination.
Joey you never disappoint. I often disagree with you but it's good to hear a straight up Stalinist opinion sometimes. :stalin-heart:
that once Taiwan falls it opens up the ocean for the Chinese navy and the ability for US to protect Japan/Korea comes into question
Is the part that doesn't seem very materialist. Yes, Having a 300x100 square kilometers of bridge point is beneficial to project power as the US, however China got a long coast and already a dominance in naval operations and forces in the area. With post 70s naval technologies and the established naval- and air-forces the People's Republic would already able to project power in the way you claim (and could implicitly threaten invasions - if they would want to).
However the PRC is not utilizing military aggression in foreign diplomacy.
Comrade I'll be honest I rarely go to leftists for analysis.
On the left you can find people discussing the "self-determination of South Vietnam" during the Vietnam war. Today you can find many leftists that supported the fascist/neoliberal uprising in Belarus/Hong Kong or told everyone that Ghadaffi should be overthrown because "then they could build a real revolution for socialism".
No, I go to liberals and far rightists for a materialist analysis most of the time and if DW (Germanys bbc) and a pro US empire liberal Ian Easton are "deeply concerned about the Empires ability to project power if Taiwan falls to China" then I am inclined to believe them.
That deep concern is just domino theory, which is the geopolitical extension of "there goes the neighbourhood". They're always deeply concerned, they frame any minor hypothetical defeat as an existential threat.
Domino theory is correct though. Everywhere a sociaist revolution happens an uptick in class consciousness and revolutions are attempted in its neighbouring countries. This happened all over 20th century with Russia then a wave of attempts in Hungary/Finland/Germany/Ireland/Greeze/Mexico/Spain/Malta and Egypt etc.
Then with China then a wave of attempts across Asia.
To combat both the PRC and Communist ideology the US along with the compradors in Taiwan (the KMT) had to create an opium drug haven in it's neighbouring countries to create the Golden Triangle (Myanmar/Laos and Thailand) directed against China and communist ideology.
Creating drug lords and turning those countries into narco states had the effect of "creating a pro business pro capitalist and anti communist and anti PRC social fabric" (Peter Dale Scott, American War Machine : Deep Politics, the CIA Global Drug Connection, and the Road to Afghanistan p.78).
The KMT used agents for drug smuggling alongside literal ex-Nazis (Ibid p.79)
It is good to read their assessments, however between the possibility and the factual is a gap. Would a anti-Chinese Taiwan be a problem if you want to invade Japan? Yes. However the power to project is there already, as Taiwan is tiny compared to the strategical ports China got. The point is not if it would make stuff easier, but if Taiwan is a necessary condition - which it isn't (though would make it a load more easy, after building much more port sites).
I get why China claims Taiwan as rightfully their territory, but it obviously functions as an independent country.
Geopolitics aside I have several taiwanese friends and they all strongly want taiwan to remain septate. They claim that's the general view among the population. No people should have an out side government (and yes at this point china is an exterior government) forced on them.
Taiwan will probably rejoin the mainland once the US empire enters into irrecoverable decline.
US meddling and "foreign aid" is the only thing keeping them afloat, and I imagine once that dries up most people will start looking with envy at the increasing standard of living in the mainland while their standard of living keeps declining.
Taiwan gets virtually no foreign aid, if anything Taiwan makes enough money to just buy weapons and defense systems (at perhaps a discounted price, or you could consider aid being the ability to buy in the first place). It's certainly not what is keeping them afloat at all, they would just buy more from Russia, France, etc.
There are no good countries, the residents of Taiwan have the right to self determination but the state is illegitimate
And now for my opinion:
China should not invade. Taiwan should stop claiming all of China (and Mongolia) and China likewise should stop claiming Taiwan. My real hot take here: Taiwan's urban development is significantly better than China's. Taiwan doesn't do massive roads everywhere like the PRC does, and it has many cozy side streets with fine grain development
as opposed to monolithic superblocks.Actually as I'm looking for evidence for this I'm forgetting just how cozy some Chinese cities can be, with plenty of fine grain development. I still think that Taiwan is better because it has less emphasis on c*rs but my earlier criticisms are feeling hollow now.Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. This is bad city planning. You do not need 6-lane roads everywhere: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.1561585,113.0528951,473m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e2
