(CW SA, abuse, potential transphobia)
Apologies in advance for the long post. There isn’t a TL;DR. There’s too much to condense. I’ve split it into sections and spoilered it to make it a little easier to read. If you DO read the whole thing, the questions my wife and I have is this:
- Are either person’s feelings wrong?
- Are these normal experiences on either of our parts? Both in terms of trauma and in terms of cis/trans experiences
- While we know this all isn’t the best way to handle things, have either of us overstepped an important line (i.e. into being abusive or transphobic)?
I am in the middle of an ongoing gender panic and am currently struggling with knowing whether some things are me people pleasing or are me genuinely being interested/disinterested in certain aspects of my gender identity and expression.
Some things about me
- I’m AMAB (29) and do not want to be a man, but am also attached to certain aspects of manhood. I also have really severe OCD and mentally have always avoided feeling and processing anything that is challenging or hard (this is going to be relevant later).
- I haven’t changed my pronouns. She/her is just incorrect. They/them makes me feel panicky. I’ve been called he/him my entire life.
- I like the sound of all the effects of estrogen except for breast growth(the thought of having breasts also makes me feel panicky) so I have no plans for HRT. I think this is related to some body dysmorphia issues I have with my weight.
- I can’t tell if I prefer a beard because I like having a beard or because my face gives me dysphoria, but I generally keep a short beard.
- I hate getting called “sir”. I hate when a strange man walks up to me and acts friendly in the guy way where he wants to do the handshake and call me “man” or “dude” or “bro” after every sentence. I hate when I can tell someone is treating me differently because they perceive me as a man, even when the treatment is better.
- I also really enjoy wearing my yoga pants and above the knee socks, but I tried wearing a skirt one time and it made me freak out. I didn’t like how I looked.
I think about this sort of the thing all the time to the point where it’s really worn me out. I’m tired of staring at myself in the mirror. I’m tired of trying to figure out what parts of my body I like and don’t like. I’m tired of just dissociating or shutting down because I’m depressed about who I am and about my body.
I’ve loved being around trans inclusive spaces and just getting to know various trans people online. I love reading about trans experiences and learning about the process of transition and how it looks so different for so many different people.
With regard to the people pleasing, whenever someone else expresses a need or desire, I almost always process that as a demand. I also process most people’s negative feelings as criticism, especially people I’m close with. There’s a lot of toxic shame going on there.
Some things about my wife
- She’s cis (31). She’s straight (like a 1 on the Kinsey) and on the asexual spectrum and experiences extreme sex repulsion. I’m the only person who she’s ever enjoyed having a sexual relationship with.
- She has a lot of sexual l, emotional, and mental trauma from past relationships which includes having sex under false pretenses among other things (but the sex repulsion was pervasive before the trauma occurred, so she’s positive they aren’t related).
- She has also experienced a lot of discord between her relationship with her gender and the experiences of women. For example (sharing with her permission), she has always been EXTREMELY disturbed and disgusted by getting a period. She has always described herself as “being bad at being a girl.” She’s said in previous discussions we’ve had that she’s always felt like she wasn’t a woman like everyone else, but she is mostly okay with paving her path own path to womanhood without worrying about anyone else.
Quick relationship context
- We’ve been together for 12 years in July of 2024. When we first got together I struggled with commitment and broke up with her and cheated on her a few times, but we’ve been solidly strong together for at least 8 of those years. However, I have had SOME sort of issue with commitment or trust every two or three years since we got together, including seeking other women to talk to (ie online chatting for sexual stuff), asking one of my friends to have a threesome with us without asking her permission first, and emotionally cheating on her and kissing the girl I was trying to date before my wife and I got together.
- We both come from rather toxic family dynamics. Hers was very in your face so she’s had time to process the trauma of that and know how it impacts her.
- We just bought our first home two years ago and have three children together.
The Discord server and first 2 times coming out
This really starts about three years ago. I made friends on Hexbear with a person who we’ll refer to as Lily. She was coming to me and a group of our friends on Discord to vent and talk about her issues with her wife, who we’ll call Calliope. At this time, admittedly, I didn’t act as my best self, and I participated in bashing Calliope for her reactions and struggles with the transition from Lily being Calliope’s husband to being Calliope’s wife. I laughed at Calliope’s pain along with my friends and told Lily that Calliope was a bad person and partner and that Lily should just leave her because she’s not worth it. All the while, my wife told me that wasn’t fair to Lily or Calliope. My wife repeatedly told me that she would have very similar feelings to Calliope and that she understood where Calliope was coming from and felt bad for her. I convinced myself and told her repeatedly that she would never be like that and that she would never have to worry about it anyway because I would never put her through that. She kept telling me that she really would feel like that and would act the same way, and I believed that (because of her trauma) she was just being self deprecating, which isn’t always an uncommon thing for her when she’s struggling.
Fast forward a few months. I’d had another friend transition (MTF), I’d been talking to my trans friends more. I finally felt like I might have the supports I needed to explore my gender. I told my wife I thought I was trans for the first time. She freaked out (which in hindsight, she said she would), and it quickly escalated into us fighting really bad. She was having panic attacks relentlessly, and I struggle to know my own feelings, so after about two days of us fighting while she asked questions, I decided I was wrong and that the whole thing was an OCD spiral because I’d been reading so much about transitioning and spending time in trans spaces. So, I went back to being cis. Then, a year later, repeat the same process.
Throughout both of these events, she was very clear that she couldn’t be with me if I was trans. She was clear that she knew her needs and her limits and that me being trans wasn’t something she could do. She said her sexuality and her trauma made me being trans a hard boundary for her. She also said, based on my behavior and my friends’ behavior towards Calliope, that she was a transphobic piece of shit for that and she wasn’t allowed to feel that way and that there were expectations for her behavior that she couldn’t follow. No matter how much I told her she wasn’t and those things weren’t true, she refused to accept or or couldn’t.
Coming out earlier this year
Finally, in March of this year, I told her I was trans again. I wasn’t really sure what I was. I just knew I wasn’t a cis man. I was having a full on gender panic. I still felt man-adjacent. But over the previous year, I’d grown out my hair, was wearing a mix of men’s and women’s clothes to find things I liked, and was just generally getting in touch with a lot of things I was uncomfortable with about being a man.
When I told my wife, she didn’t react great. A lot of the Lily/Calliope anxieties resurfaced, and we fought relentlessly. I had a lot of different labels that I used. I started with trans, then moved to NB, then moved to demo-man, but none of them really lasted for more than a few weeks, and this really distressed my wife. Every time we discussed labels and gender identity, she would get distressed and upset with me for changing, and I always felt like she didn’t really understand exactly what I was saying (this will be a continual issue).
This was ten months ago, and we’ve had MANY long conversations about my gender, her sexuality, our relationship, our connection, what we want and feel. Approximately 5 months ago, we figured out that her panicky and distressed reactions to my gender changes were related to her sexual and relationship trauma. She expressed that, even though she knew it wasn’t the same thing, she was triggered by the thought of me being a gender other than the one I thought I was when we got together. She’s expressed that she’s triggered by constantly having inconsistency and instability, because she’s experienced denial of consistency and safety as a punishment in her past abusive relationships. She’s expressed that she has been pretty triggered by mine and my friends’ reactions to Lily/Calliope’s experiences and how she’s going to be treated (and that whole experience really has resulted in her feeling like she’s transphobic for knowing her limits).
There’s also the aspect of her being straight and ace with extreme sex repulsion. Ours is the only sexual relationship she’s ever enjoyed and if it turned out my presentation or identity was too feminine, we’d both be losing that. However, during this discussion that was meant to be productive where she was finally able to articulate the cross section between her complex sexuality and her trauma, I got angry and reactive, and I told her she was transphobic (one of her biggest fears, which I’d told her repeatedly over the last three years that it wasn’t a reality) and she wasn’t allowed to have sexual trauma relating to trans people because a trans person didn’t rape her. It’s not something I’m proud of, but I basically threw her trauma in her face and told her she was a bad person for knowing who she is and what she can do, after being the only person in her life that has ever REALLY made her feel safe and truly loved. And it broke me when I’d realized what I’d done, but I’ve been trying to earn back that trust, and it’s been going pretty well, but the anxiety is always re-triggered for her when we talk about my gender and/or her feelings.
The scale and labels
So, we have spent ten months fighting a lot. On one hand, she wanted wanted to be supportive and was validating to me when she was calm and collected and not triggered. On the other, even a mention of me being trans, being a woman, or even non-binary could made her panicky. I didn’t have a good label for what I was, and since the generic label was triggering, we started using a Kinsey-like scale where I rated my gender from 1-7, where 1 is completely aligned with my AGAB (cis man) and 7 is completely unaligned (binary trans woman). I considered myself a 2 or a 3 out of 7. She said her boundary was 3. She couldn’t do a 3 or higher. After this, we started using the scale we’d created to discuss where to could fall on the scale with certain labels and where she could fall in terms of her sexuality, because the goal was for us to be able to stay together but for us to be able to both feel safe with where I ended up and for us both to feel validated. She felt that I needed to do this for me, but she also felt like she should be able to be a part of the process if she was impacted by it as well. Specifically, she asked for flexibility on the label I ended up using, so we could find one that made me feel validated and safe and made her feel like she wasn’t forcing herself into a sexuality that she knows she isn’t and doesn’t want. I agreed that this wasn’t too much to ask for. So, we each individually made a list of all of the gendered labels that felt true and safe and that we thought and felt like they could work. We both had a lot of common labels on each of our lists, but when we would talk and try to solidify one, there just seemed so much discord between us and we both repeatedly left conversations feeling like the other person didn’t understand.
We would have short sprints with relentless fighting (like 1 day to two weeks), where we would be distant and didn’t know if we could be affectionate or if we’d get through it. Then that would be followed up with long bouts where we were so much like our old selves, and we acted like we have for the last 11.5 years. But, she felt the whole time that she had to make any conversations about us and our issues happen, because I just fell into the tendency to ignore the problem, which is typical for me.
Denial and complete breakdown of identity
In the past month, things have gotten worse. I’ve become more anxious about our interactions and relationship. And after many lengthy discussions, we’ve realized that I have kind of resorted to living within an alternate reality in my head where I perceive her in a way that isn’t true. For example, I was convinced every time we talked about my gender that she understood I wasn’t a man at all. However, in the back of my head, I knew that her cut off was “if there isn’t any man involved at all, I can’t do this, but I can try if you’re a man of some kind.” So, even though I knew that, I convinced myself she understood, when if she’d understood, she would have told me she was done. And I’ve realized I’ve done that for our whole relationship. I’ve done that with every aspect of our relationship, and I’ve never actually let her into see the real me or any of my feelings. I broke down twice yesterday, and she cried because it was the first time she has ever really seen me really feel. But, she’s really struggling because I broke the fantasy for both of us: I admitted that I’ve been in denial and that I don’t know what parts of me were real and will remain when I’m better, or if I’ll ever get better, and I’m not a man at all.
For the first time, I’m being honest even when it’s terrifying, but she’s struggling to believe me, even though she is very open about understanding these are real, despite feeling like they are lies. But now she doesn’t know if she wants to leave or stay. I don’t know if I want to leave or stay. We love each other… we love each other so fucking much. We are closer to divorce than we ever imagined we could be. We’ve discussed what a separation would seriously look like and we’re both devastated.
So, we’re back to the questions we started with. Are either of us wrong to feel what we feel or is one of us overreacting or being unfair? Are these normal experiences for other couples who have has a person question? While we know the things that have happened aren’t the best way to handle things, have either of us overstepped an important line (i.e. into being abusive or transphobic)? Is it possible to survive this much?
We both love each other. Thanks in advance to anyone who’s read this far. Any feedback is appreciated.
I don't think I have a lot of worthwhile insight here, so I won't just spout off endlessly or pass judgement on anyone's behavior, but what I do know is that it's very common and understandable for one person transitioning, or even just realizing they're trans, to put a lot of strain on a relationship or even make it completely untenable. It may be that you both have hard boundaries that are just incompatible, and that doesn't mean you can't still care about eachother, but in that case, something would have to change... Maybe you can eventually come to some sort of resolution that works for you to stay together, maybe not, but as long as you both engage in figuring that out with love and complete honesty I'm confident you will both be happier on the other side of these hard times.
Sorry you're going through all this
Hey I read your whole thing. I just went through a somewhat similar situation with my now ex fiance. The way I see this situation is that it's fucked and it sucks but it's also an incredibly difficult situation for the both of you. Like your wife, my ex did not react well.
And when you said "And after many lengthy discussions, we’ve realized that I have kind of resorted to living within an alternate reality in my head where I perceive her in a way that isn’t true. For example, I was convinced every time we talked about my gender that she understood I wasn’t a man at all." I realized I was doing that exact thing. But there was a reason for this compartimentalization - it was because I didn't feel safe with her. In my situation it wasn't just my ex getting panicky but verbally berating me whenever my gender was brought up.
To be honest, I think the severity of the situation Can excuse some shitty remarks from both sides here. It's very stressful and I don't think either of you should really worry about that. Further, in an ideal world ig both of you have done "wrong" things. But like, no. This sounds a lot like the situation that i wrnt through. In my situation, she feels like i betrayed her. I just feel bad for her though.
That being said, I think you have to come to terms with the fact that it's very very likely this relationship is ending. I'm sorry comrade. But she laid out her hard lines and yeah I'm sorry
Hey, so I've talked before on here about my experience as a detransitioner and some things you said about yourself kinda resonated with me.
spoiler
I socially transitioned about 4 years ago and lived as a woman with she/her pronouns and a female name for just over 2 years before detransitioning last year to where I am now living as a cis man again.
Like you, I had conflicting feelings, I couldn't really think of myself as a "man", I personally hated things like body hair about myself, but I also never really liked the thought of having breasts, for example. I wrote a comment about how everything went a few days ago. I did like wearing skirts and dresses tho.
I have this theory that I'm kinda hesitant to talk about because some people could see it as invalidating, but there's just certain patterns I've noticed within my circles that I can't overlook. I think that, maybe, some people who feel alienated or lost within left-leaning circles see trans people and envy them for taking control of their own identity, they see how some trans people bloom after finally being able to be their true selves and hope that if they went through something like this, they could find similar results. Trans people are also part of a community in a way that cishet men just aren't, which I remember being a very nice experience. For a cishet white guy, there is no group of people that's "your people", because groups centered around their white male identity are, yknow, nazis.
I'm obviously not saying that trans people have it better than cishet white guys. The whole reason I detransitioned was because being a man is easier and you face infinitely less adversity in your day-to-day life. But my theory is that some unhappy people see transitioning as an opportunity to reclaim agency over their identity and to find happiness, to maybe fix what is wrong with their lives and find a community. Especially in left-wing circles, where there is less environmental pressure to conform to traditional gender roles and trans identities are more celebrated.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me, and I just struggle to believe that I'm the only one who this applies to. Trans communities, in my experience, are full of endless affirmation. I remember seeing popular tweets like "If you think you may be a woman, you probably are", and I know it all comes from a place of kindness and support for a minority that is constantly and relentlessly denied such support from institutions and broader society. But no, I don't think every AMAB person who isn't 100% sure about their gender identity would be happier living as a woman. Transitioning might make you happy, it might help you discover your true self, it might turn you into a completely different person, I know a bunch of people for whom it made a night/day difference, who truly blossomed. But it might also not. It might not be what you need, it might not change or improve anything at all. I know enough people who made that experience too.
Personally, I don't regret transitioning, I learned a lot about myself and thanks to my very supportive environment, it cost me nothing. If I knew your environment was as supportive as mine, I'd encourage you to try it for yourself and see how you like it. But it sounds like there would be a cost for you. Your experience of how you perceive yourself sounds a lot like mine, and I feel like there aren't many voices on the left that say "You might not feel better living as a woman than you do now." to people who are questioning. I don't know how you'll feel reading this, but my hope is that it might help quiet down the "What if, what if, what if" that's probably going through your head all the time. Transitioning might help you, but it might also not. If you don't like she/her pronouns, you don't like skirts and you don't like the idea of having tits, then maybe a 2 or a 3 on your scale is just right for you, and just because you're happier as a 3 than as a 1, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be happier as a 5 than you are as a 3.
I think that, maybe, some people who feel alienated or lost within left-leaning circles see trans people and envy them for taking control of their own identity, they see how some trans people bloom after finally being able to be their true selves and hope that if they went through something like this, they could find similar results. Trans people are also part of a community in a way that cishet men just aren't
Oh hey, it's me
Bump. Someone please reply so I can remember to read later.
I have no trans experience so I can't speak to any of those feeling. I have however been married for about 14 years with a lot of really rough patches. I have found there are some differences that can't be worked out. Some can be ignored but other problems are completely relationship defining, yours is definitely the later. As you obviously know even if you can ignore it for a while this issue is likely going to cause problems for the rest of your relationship.
I'm not going into any of my partner's and my issues but about a year ago we hit a pretty massive breaking point. It was an issue that had popped up repeatedly over the years but after things came to major head we realized some shit is never going to change. We're still together for now and we still love each other but our relationship has changed, we're closer to best friends than spouses at this point. For now we're trying to hold the status quo but in a couple months she's going to start living else where most of the time. At that point we're going to kinda re-asses if there is anything left in the relationship for us or if best friends really would be better (we're both leaning that way.)
All that to say you can love some one and still be totally incompatible in some important ways. Living your life with constant fighting and anxiety isn't fair to either of you and if you keep doing it you're likely to end up in a fight that doesn't just kill your relationship but also your friendship. To me it sounds like it's time to start talking about how you can support each other as just friends going forward.
I didn't see it mentioned but regardless of how this turns out I hope you both are seeing a therapist and not trying to navigate this on your own. It seems like you have a lot to talk about and discover about yourself and a good psychologist that you gel with could really help you get though this.
I can't really offer you help, as I lack experience in these topics. However i will still wish the two of you the best of luck in dealing with this situation and that both of you get out of it happier than before.
Hi I read your post and there's a lot to take in and I may have more thoughts later but for now I'll just focus on one specific thing
Not sure if "Kinsey scale for gender" is a good idea. Speaking personally as an agender person I would have no place on such a scale. I'm not a man or a woman, but I'm not something "in between" either. I'm 0% man and 0% woman, not 50/50 or any other combination thereof. Though such a scale might make sense for someone who is genderfluid or bi-gender etc. it definitely doesn't apply to everyone - of course I cannot say if it applies to you or not. Being a 2 or 3 on a 0-6 scale would make you 50-66% man and 33-50% woman, does that describe your experience?
I read the whole post, and I think your experience parallels mine in a lot of ways.
I, too, was getting a new gender every week, and I also negotiated with my wife about how feminine would be within an "acceptable" range. It was a pretty rough time.
I'm going to be honest, though, and say that, based on this story, most of your anxiety is coming from your relationship and what your wife thinks as opposed to what you're actually going through.
You need the space to explore without arbitrary limits. I tried exploring gender within limits, and it made the situation way worse. Eventually, I said fuck it. Started looking at how to get hormones, said I was gonna transition. Once I gave myself the space to actually explore, I realized it wasn't for me.
I'm now perfectly happy with my (unnamed) gender identity, and I'm not a trans woman, but I needed the space to accept that it would be okay if I were without worrying about destroying my relationship.
I might echo what another commenter said. It's probably time for some therapy if it's an option.
I want to give advice but this should probably go to an elder queer. I’m not nearly experienced enough for this.
That's not gonna work out. You can't explore your gender like that, the entire point is that you have to try things out in an open-ended way and find out through experimentation what you need to feel comfortable with yourself. We've all grown up in a deeply transphobic society, when you may be trans yourself you have to ignore limitations of permissible gender expression to find out of something resonates with you. When you set fixed limits on what's still masculine enough for your partner, you can't have that, and when you're having a gender crisis you by definition can't declare in advance what you're gonna do and where you're gonna end up.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but cis dudes pls stfu about things you know less than nothing about, this is extremely bad, counterproductive and potentially life-destroying advice you're giving.