The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
schools in Xinxiang don’t teach the Uighur’s language
the camps and a lot of the development are focussed on sinicizing the Uighurs, explicitly
the main form of assimilation is making the Uighur’s ‘fit into the economy’, as if they’re not fine just how they are thank you very much haha
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
Zenz isn’t the only human on earth saying there’s something not quite right happening in XinJiang, despite what a lot of people seem to believe. He’s a major source, and one to be ignored, but he’s not literally the only source haha. And I knew he would come up, which is why in my list comment here I tried to stick to things that the Chinese government had explicitly stated themselves.
He isn't, but they lean on him very heavily, and I haven't seen many other prevailing anti-Chinese sources on Xinjiang in Western media. All the ones I've seen are anti-Communist.
You prove unequivocally that you're not doing the really bad thing it kinda looks like you might be doing. Like 90% of discourse around the camps is 'we don't really know what's happening' hahaha
You prove unequivocally that you’re not doing the really bad thing it kinda looks like you might be doing.
I mean like, they have. Everyone's ignored it. Also if I say, hey Gorn is murdering people and hiding their bodies in a secret place, HOW DO YOU PROVE THAT
I'd show you the secret place until people were more or less all confident that it's chill. I guess they're probably been doing this, but the people they let in keep condeming it? And I'm actually fully open to the possibility that they're only doing so for ideological reasons.
Also, I really don't want either of us to feel like 'ah hah! they give up! I won!' or 'but I can't let them have the last word!' but, for reasons entirely unrelated to the content of this conversation, I'm moving away from this conversation for now haha I hope that's cool. I'm sorry if this was a little heated, and I consider you a good comrade o7
Alright, cool, thanks for that. I’m very, very conflict averse haha and I was getting a little too heated in another thread with another comrade, so I’m stepping back
I totally see what you’re saying though, fwiw. I just wish we had some really, really clear evidence or something that could put it all to rest but... I guess that’s not exactly the nature of international politics under global capitalism hahaha shakes red fist :red-fist:
I’ll prolly remain skeptical for now. But continue to do my best self-educating and tossing aside any unfounded beliefs I find I hold! :af-heart:
I'm too skeptical to portion out my skepticism toward one superpower based on how skeptical I am of another hahaha, I'm just skeptical of power. All of it. But I hear you, and trust me... I despise the usa haha, it's more than just skepticism, which I'll freely admit. I'm not from the usa or China, so to me they're both just global superpowers except China's a lot more functional and probably better in most ways. And also the usa has tended to be imperialist, including against China obviously. China much, much less so. But China's also probably not 'better' in absolutely every dimension? idk
When I think of China I legit don't think of it in terms of the usa/compared to the usa. I sometimes wish that the usa didn't have to be a part of the conversation when talking about other countries, tbh
I'm also not trying to, like, universally condemn China when I talk about the camps, by any means. Like they still do things like health care, climate change mitigation, pandemic response apparently, and incarceration rates waaay better than the usa. Which I guess I should say if I'm criticizing something as controversial as the camps. I'm just... not convinced these camps are all they're cracked up to be hahaha my country has a long history of interning ethnic groups in camps for various reasons, and I think I just have a hard time accepting 'maybe this time the camps aren't so bad, actually' hahaha 🤷♂️
What exactly about this situation is unique compared to the dozens of other times the West has attempted to discredit them? There's literally like two or three sources on this that are pumping out lies and you can see them easily every time.
My dude, Xinjiang is fully open to visitors, just so you know. Plenty of people go there, and leave there.
Jerry's China has some stuff on this topic. He's an old white westerner, which helps remove some 'bias'. He also has a twitter account where he documents himself cycling across China: https://nitter.net/Jerry_grey2002
Here's a full interview with him by a VERY western-biased interviewer: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=L9AyqT6RC4E
China has invited all sorts of ambassadors and diplomats to come have a look at what they're doing in Xinjiang, so they're not hiding anything.
The US has warned a UN ambassador from visiting and taking a look for himself, because it will run counter to US interests. Seriously. https://www.ft.com/content/edfc99a2-8eff-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972
I hope some of that was useful, and I'm not trying to attack you.
Fwiw, I don’t trust old white people as sources more or less than other people haha. Thanks for not being attacky. I’ll check these out when I have time later. I didn’t realize just anyone could visit the camps any time, I’m amazed there’s so much controversy if that’s the case. Unless you’re referring to the region more generally? I’ll find out when I watch these hah
On what? That the Chinese government claims the camps are to combat terrorism and offer skills training? That the main goal is to make the Uighurs fit into the Chinese economy? Which is a form of sinicization, along with Mandarin and probably other tacit cultural knowledge taught in the camps? That's all pretty open imo I'm not gonna bother googling that for you haha that’s pretty much the list I posted
The only thing is ‘to what extent is Uighur-language education available?’ And it’s complex, and there’s very little information about it. But my reading doesn’t fundamentally change in either context, tbh
I won’t lie tho, I don’t particularly have the capacity for a struggle session right now. This is a famously frustrating one, too haha. No one really has much information (which is suspicious to me), and lots of people have strong feelings about whether it’s good or bad to criticize the camps, usually for broader reasons not necessarily specifically to do with XinJiang. It’s... a lot haha o7
I actually don't have a super firm opinion on this stuff. If you look at the top comment here right now, it's me saying what a shitty equivocation this is to the holocaust. It's nothing like that. But on the other hand, there is very little room to be critical of the camps on here which is frustrating. It's scary haha you don't want to say your thoughts cuz people are very quick to anger on the issue, for probably good reason I guess.
But they could have done day schools in communities, like every other 'skills training program' on earth, right? But they did something very different. Idk, I'm fine with being critical until we learn more. That's, like, a fine thing to do hahaha
The question is if you are trying to see this as something sinister China is doing or if they are trying to cope with a very real problem by further developing the region and thereby create more opportunities for the people in the region? For this, IMO it is surely beneficial to learn vocational skills so you can occupy better jobs and to know the common language of China.
I wouldn't say vocational training is always everywhere on earth done like you say, that is silly too. For example, for my apprenticeship I had to travel to another part of the country I live in as well, I don't know, wasn't that bad. This is not really uncommon either. But okay.
Not trying to be antagonistic on this, it definitely is complicated and I'm not saying China is doing everything perfectly either, but I err on the side of China handling this the best they can.
I think you and I are likely very similar in perspective, for real. But we're both just framing our statements from opposite places.
You seem to want to defend the state of China because they’re not as bad as like 99% of americans believe. Which is fair.
I seem to want to criticize the state of China because they definitely aren’t doing things perfectly. And every power structure needs to be criticized, and is prone to criticism. To me it’s impossible that any state, let alone a global superpower, could be untarnished by imperialist tendencies that need to be recognized.
I end up looking like an imperialist american I guess lmao which is deeply ironic, and you end up looking like China stan or something, even though, at the centre, we probably think very similarly.
This is a huge part of why I hate extremely charged conversations like this. Everyone’s being so fucking political instead of just saying the thing, and it makes my brain hurt haha.
And it’s a very, very emotional conversation for people so any amount of disagreement turns into ppl demeaning each other and assuming the other side is just brainwashed or something. It’s exhausting haha solidarity forever
I don't know anything about murder. I definitely never claimed people are being murdered, I've never seen evidence of that happening. 21 million is ironically most commonly discussed as the total number of ppl who live in XinJiang haha so that's kinda... sus? Not entirely sure what you're getting at tbh
Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.
There's no cultural genocide happening, though, and the BBC tried really hard to make you think otherwise.
The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
this isn't contradictory
In fact, teaching people skills that will help them better integrate into society is a very good deterrent of terrorism
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
Zenz isn’t the only human on earth saying there’s something not quite right happening in XinJiang, despite what a lot of people seem to believe. He’s a major source, and one to be ignored, but he’s not literally the only source haha. And I knew he would come up, which is why in my list comment here I tried to stick to things that the Chinese government had explicitly stated themselves.
He isn't, but they lean on him very heavily, and I haven't seen many other prevailing anti-Chinese sources on Xinjiang in Western media. All the ones I've seen are anti-Communist.
I mean, I know that just as much as you do. I just have a different interpretation, I suppose. Nothing wrong with that.
I mean, how do you prove something you're not doing?
You prove unequivocally that you're not doing the really bad thing it kinda looks like you might be doing. Like 90% of discourse around the camps is 'we don't really know what's happening' hahaha
I mean like, they have. Everyone's ignored it. Also if I say, hey Gorn is murdering people and hiding their bodies in a secret place, HOW DO YOU PROVE THAT
I'd show you the secret place until people were more or less all confident that it's chill. I guess they're probably been doing this, but the people they let in keep condeming it? And I'm actually fully open to the possibility that they're only doing so for ideological reasons.
Also, I really don't want either of us to feel like 'ah hah! they give up! I won!' or 'but I can't let them have the last word!' but, for reasons entirely unrelated to the content of this conversation, I'm moving away from this conversation for now haha I hope that's cool. I'm sorry if this was a little heated, and I consider you a good comrade o7
So then I'd say well, he's lying about the secret place! It's a treadmill that no one wins, basically. It's hard to disprove.
It's okay, I'm honestly not heated at all. I know you mean well, and you are skeptical, but you aren't contemptuous.
Alright, cool, thanks for that. I’m very, very conflict averse haha and I was getting a little too heated in another thread with another comrade, so I’m stepping back
I totally see what you’re saying though, fwiw. I just wish we had some really, really clear evidence or something that could put it all to rest but... I guess that’s not exactly the nature of international politics under global capitalism hahaha shakes red fist :red-fist:
I’ll prolly remain skeptical for now. But continue to do my best self-educating and tossing aside any unfounded beliefs I find I hold! :af-heart:
I just think we're probably not going to get anything like that. I'd just ask if you remain skeptical, be double skeptical about whatever the US does!
I'm too skeptical to portion out my skepticism toward one superpower based on how skeptical I am of another hahaha, I'm just skeptical of power. All of it. But I hear you, and trust me... I despise the usa haha, it's more than just skepticism, which I'll freely admit. I'm not from the usa or China, so to me they're both just global superpowers except China's a lot more functional and probably better in most ways. And also the usa has tended to be imperialist, including against China obviously. China much, much less so. But China's also probably not 'better' in absolutely every dimension? idk
When I think of China I legit don't think of it in terms of the usa/compared to the usa. I sometimes wish that the usa didn't have to be a part of the conversation when talking about other countries, tbh
I'm also not trying to, like, universally condemn China when I talk about the camps, by any means. Like they still do things like health care, climate change mitigation, pandemic response apparently, and incarceration rates waaay better than the usa. Which I guess I should say if I'm criticizing something as controversial as the camps. I'm just... not convinced these camps are all they're cracked up to be hahaha my country has a long history of interning ethnic groups in camps for various reasons, and I think I just have a hard time accepting 'maybe this time the camps aren't so bad, actually' hahaha 🤷♂️
What exactly about this situation is unique compared to the dozens of other times the West has attempted to discredit them? There's literally like two or three sources on this that are pumping out lies and you can see them easily every time.
My dude, Xinjiang is fully open to visitors, just so you know. Plenty of people go there, and leave there.
Jerry's China has some stuff on this topic. He's an old white westerner, which helps remove some 'bias'. He also has a twitter account where he documents himself cycling across China: https://nitter.net/Jerry_grey2002 Here's a full interview with him by a VERY western-biased interviewer: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=L9AyqT6RC4E
China has invited all sorts of ambassadors and diplomats to come have a look at what they're doing in Xinjiang, so they're not hiding anything.
The US has warned a UN ambassador from visiting and taking a look for himself, because it will run counter to US interests. Seriously. https://www.ft.com/content/edfc99a2-8eff-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972
I hope some of that was useful, and I'm not trying to attack you.
Fwiw, I don’t trust old white people as sources more or less than other people haha. Thanks for not being attacky. I’ll check these out when I have time later. I didn’t realize just anyone could visit the camps any time, I’m amazed there’s so much controversy if that’s the case. Unless you’re referring to the region more generally? I’ll find out when I watch these hah
hey your interpretation seems lo line up more with the CIA narrative than the social and material reality.. haha kinda weird lol
I mean, it's either Zenz or someone affiliated with NED, Turkey or the US.
You don't by chance have a source on that handy?
On what? That the Chinese government claims the camps are to combat terrorism and offer skills training? That the main goal is to make the Uighurs fit into the Chinese economy? Which is a form of sinicization, along with Mandarin and probably other tacit cultural knowledge taught in the camps? That's all pretty open imo I'm not gonna bother googling that for you haha that’s pretty much the list I posted
The only thing is ‘to what extent is Uighur-language education available?’ And it’s complex, and there’s very little information about it. But my reading doesn’t fundamentally change in either context, tbh
I won’t lie tho, I don’t particularly have the capacity for a struggle session right now. This is a famously frustrating one, too haha. No one really has much information (which is suspicious to me), and lots of people have strong feelings about whether it’s good or bad to criticize the camps, usually for broader reasons not necessarily specifically to do with XinJiang. It’s... a lot haha o7
I actually don't have a super firm opinion on this stuff. If you look at the top comment here right now, it's me saying what a shitty equivocation this is to the holocaust. It's nothing like that. But on the other hand, there is very little room to be critical of the camps on here which is frustrating. It's scary haha you don't want to say your thoughts cuz people are very quick to anger on the issue, for probably good reason I guess.
But they could have done day schools in communities, like every other 'skills training program' on earth, right? But they did something very different. Idk, I'm fine with being critical until we learn more. That's, like, a fine thing to do hahaha
The question is if you are trying to see this as something sinister China is doing or if they are trying to cope with a very real problem by further developing the region and thereby create more opportunities for the people in the region? For this, IMO it is surely beneficial to learn vocational skills so you can occupy better jobs and to know the common language of China.
I wouldn't say vocational training is always everywhere on earth done like you say, that is silly too. For example, for my apprenticeship I had to travel to another part of the country I live in as well, I don't know, wasn't that bad. This is not really uncommon either. But okay.
Not trying to be antagonistic on this, it definitely is complicated and I'm not saying China is doing everything perfectly either, but I err on the side of China handling this the best they can.
I think you and I are likely very similar in perspective, for real. But we're both just framing our statements from opposite places.
You seem to want to defend the state of China because they’re not as bad as like 99% of americans believe. Which is fair.
I seem to want to criticize the state of China because they definitely aren’t doing things perfectly. And every power structure needs to be criticized, and is prone to criticism. To me it’s impossible that any state, let alone a global superpower, could be untarnished by imperialist tendencies that need to be recognized.
I end up looking like an imperialist american I guess lmao which is deeply ironic, and you end up looking like China stan or something, even though, at the centre, we probably think very similarly.
This is a huge part of why I hate extremely charged conversations like this. Everyone’s being so fucking political instead of just saying the thing, and it makes my brain hurt haha.
And it’s a very, very emotional conversation for people so any amount of disagreement turns into ppl demeaning each other and assuming the other side is just brainwashed or something. It’s exhausting haha solidarity forever
He seems to be the only one claiming 21 million people have been murdered though, which seems pretty easy to veryify either way.
I don't know anything about murder. I definitely never claimed people are being murdered, I've never seen evidence of that happening. 21 million is ironically most commonly discussed as the total number of ppl who live in XinJiang haha so that's kinda... sus? Not entirely sure what you're getting at tbh
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Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.