None of these is true for me, yet I still don't receive the full value of my labor. Curious.
Lmao you DON'T? Maybe you should simply try being born rich and using your great grandad's slavery money to fund all your businesses? It's really not that hard smh.
I’ve thought about this, and it’s functionally true, but I also think there’s a more accurate way of understanding it.
It’s important to note that the base of fascist movements is in the petite bourgeois, because the petite bourgeois, in the Marxist sense, don’t really have any independent ability to advance their class interests. They inevitably get squeezed out by the big bourgeoisie as capitalism develops, or lose out to the proletariat if capitalism is overthrown, which leads to this sort of innate, psycho conservatism, clinging to a society where they still actually exist.
IMO that’s sort of the deep drive behind fascism, more than like a conscious defense of the bourgeoisie.
It’s not like a monolithic class though, and as class struggle intensifies, layers of the pb will be torn in different directions. Like it could be that some of them will materially be better off in a worker-led society where they have a good wage and healthcare, vs. working 80 hours a week to keep their freelance graphic design business alive.
A strong and organized working class can smash the reactionary layers and, if we can present a real alternative, win some support from the PBs who are struggling.
Conservative Lib: These illegal aliens don't pay any taxes and mooch off of welfare.
Also Conservative Lib: I work off the books so I don't have to pay taxes, I also can't wait to recive medicare and a social security.
Exactly. Once you know this, you got all the keys in hand to explain how illegitimate capitalism is and how workers are getting robbed
im hoping to provoke unorthodox reactions from an orthodox church, roughly speaking
I swear i come in peace.
I don't think you understand your audience at all, then. This isn't a liberal (or even "progressive") community; it's a leftist one.
isn’t a liberal (or even “progressive”)
Incredibly valuable insight.
This is my naïveté on plain display...Every leftist space ive played in has had some extremely vocal progressive contingent, and not triggering them has been the key to some very interesting discussion.
Well if you're looking for discussion on the point you brought up above...
Everyone in the world will try to screw you.
This is a function of the capitalist system. As leftists we view this cutthroat philosophy within the culture as the result of a system built on exploitation.
If some one steals your wages, your recourse is EXTREMELY strong
This is fundamentally untrue. Wage theft amounts to at least a third of total theft in terms of the amounts stolen. And yet I never hear about thousands of people raking in lifelong payouts from successful lawsuits against thieving employers--perhaps because no one who needs to work to put food on the table is able to pursue one for an extended period of time, and pay all the legal costs for years until the lawsuit concludes (yes, if you win you can get your legal costs paid, but that's a huge gamble most people can't afford to make). And in fact, even a successful lawsuit only entitles you to the wages that were stolen, plus back pay. You can bet that even after winning, you'll still need to find a new job--so it's hardly worth it, especially given that employers who find out about your lawsuit are going to be a lot less likely to hire you.
And all of this is missing the point of this post overall, which is that this entire system is rotten, and designed to protect these thieves, because they're the ones who have all the money and hence, all the power (they're capitalists--the ones who own the capital, particularly the means of production). My top-level comment, which you'll notice is well-liked, references Marxist theory regarding the exploitation of labor, which points out that profits are stolen labor-value (in short, the difference between what a laborer is paid and the exchange value of the products produced by that laborer--minus the cost of inputs--is being stolen from that laborer, by dint of the fact that the laborer is not the owner of the means of production, which under capitalism are private property owned by the holders of capital).
Also, even with people trying to win back their wages, total paybacks amount to a pittance to what businesses are able to get away with. 2019 had a "record-breaking" $322 million back wages collected according to the Department of Labor yet businesses get away with an estimated > $15 billion dollars in minimum wage violations every year
Everyone in the world will try to screw you. Screw them back more. It has a deterrent effect.
This is sad, dude. I'm not trying to dunk on you, but that kind of mindset is first, not even helpful or accurate , but also is going to make you start to feel really alienated from your community if you believe it.
The only people trying to screw you in this world are capitalists. Most everyone else is simply hurting others incidentally out of selfishness (which is often caused by being forced to fight for their survival in a capitalist society). Capitalists are telling you your work isn't worth enough money to get you by. Capitalists are raising your rent. Capitalists are increasing the costs of your medications, gas and food, even though we have all of the things we need and don't need to pay for any of it if we simply distributed it all fairly.
I'm not out to get you, even though you support someone who has said racist things about members of my community. I still want you to have a roof over your head and healthcare. Maybe you think that's naive and i'll get "steamrolled" by the real world. Let me assure you i am a full grown adult, married, with a house, and with a successful job and have yet to be punished for the random acts of kindness i have done for strangers.
To truly be strong you must understand when to use your strength. We use our strength to fight the people oppressing us both, not each other.
you literally cannot dunk on me bro, im explaining someone else's perspective.
who's perspective is it? Do you believe, counter to the science, that humans are inherently selfish?
Science can get fucked, but in this case, yes, humans are inherently selfish...
You really don't want my personal perspective on anything.
just wanna add that even hunter gatherers took care of people who couldn't contribute to their society btw. https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/82-humans-took-care-of-the-disabled-over-500-000-years-ago
Theres selecfive pressure to do so as well. Most of the time another organism needing help is temporary. After the need has passed others become able to help in return.
That would be collective self-interest....say when an in-group all decides the same thing.. Even then someone in that group might have intention to screw you over and you should be watching for such....
But you should be wise about who you are spending your effort watching to screw you over, right? Your boss or landlord is gonna screw you over 5000 times more often and more harshly than anyone without any money or power. So logically wouldn't you want to spend your time watching for attacks from the place they come most frequently from?
So you admit that you are wrong but don't want to go after the people who are actually hurting you? That's kinda pathetic ngl
Really? So you don't have to worry about poverty, food, rent, your job, medications, gas, your car payments? The constant grind of being forced to sell your body and mind for menial labor to barely make ends isn't "hurting" you?
poverty,
Solved it for my family by 25
food, rent,
I grow my own food on land which I own.
your job
I created my job.
medications
lol
gas, your car payments?
Gas is trivial when you telecommute and I don't like the notion of ownership of my stuff which comes with loans.
So your job is 100% guaranteed to last forever? You have literally no fear of ever being homeless?
And all of your family is doing well? No one you know is struggling to make ends meet?
I own my land....i can sleep in the greenhouse.
it generates foods.
So what are you afraid of then. I fyou have infinite food and land and your entire family is well of financially? What are you so scared of that you're coming here to post about how how "people are trying to screw you?"
Im not scared of anything, champ, like i said im explaining other people's perspective.
You quite literally said this "Everyone in the world will try to screw you."
Why did you say that? It sounds like you're living a charmed life.
Screw them back. It has a deterrent effect.
I earned my charmed life.
Some asshole gave me lumber and tools in exchange for these dumb slips of paper lmao.
So you screwed them over by engaging in the rules of capitalism? Sounds like you agree it's exploitative.
Is that true in all scenarios? If someone stole your land would you be okay with it? Since that's the rules?
If someone stole your land would you be okay with it? Since that’s the rules?
This is what guns are for.
Sok you're not okay with, if you're willing to fight against some exploitation.
here's the thing. I'm against exploitation at all times. You can be too. It sounds like you actually are against the same exploitation we are. You just need to educate yourself and we'll try to be as nice as possible when helping with that. We don't even want to take your guns.
I educated myself.
Still a big shrug on the exploitation. You may as well soak up the ocean with a paper plate my dude.
What does that mean? You don't care because you don't think you can fix it? I don't think i can fix it by myself either. But i can't stay true to myself i don't fight for what is right - true freedom from exploitation for everyone and making the world a better place in however small a way i can.
Are you opposed to making the world a better place?
Fixing the world is above my paygrade, champ. I prefer my effort to have direct effects on my immediate loved ones.
One could argue that is the only direct effect you can do anyway. What are you doing then, to help your loved ones and ensure their lives are free from exploitation?
Insulating them from a system piloted by idiots which also happens to be on fire and heading towards a mine field.
Those idiots who set it on fire and set it on the course towards a mine field are all capitalists.
Why don't you join us in our struggle against capitalism? I just want everyone to have enough land, food, and healthcare.
But i can't help but notice you didn't actually list any concrete actions. Do you think your posts here will help insulate them from that damage somehow? Or is there more you're doing than simply trying to survive as best you can in a capitalist world, like everyone else is?
I just want everyone to have enough land, food, and healthcare.
I care about a total of maybe 40 people. The rest of you are none of my business.
i can’t help but notice you didn’t actually list any concrete actions.
My methods are mine, and I don't want to argue them in public.
It doesn't sound like your'e actually doing anything, dude. It's okay, it can be hard to start when you first realize how immense the scale of the problem is.
I didn't ask you to care about us, but why wouldn't you naturally ally yourself with people who have stated repeatedly they're on your side and want you to have those things? Join us brother, we will take down the capitalists together. In your town, there is probably enough land and food for every single person to have a house and not struggle. But rich people insist on taking more than their fair share. I'm against that, are you?
I'll pass. Too many philosophical and mathematical compromises are required.
People getting a fair share instead of 1% of people hoarding it all is a "philosophical and mathematical" compromise? In what way?
i'm trying to be sincere here. You said i didn't want your opinion but i do. If you order a pizza, you'd want, for the most part, everyone at the party to get a fairly equal number of slices, right? That's just common sense.
My people don't worry about much of that scarcity nonsense, and neither do I. Struggles over fair share is what we call an out-group problem.
Ah, so you're saying you and all the 40 people you care about are well off and you're already in the 1%. I see why you're against us now.
You could say we're richer than the 1%....those suckers still have debts and they pay for food and shit like that. .... dummies.
Why are you wasting your time posting here if you're so rich? that's kinda sad. You're not even making a good argument on your own behalf.
I'm enjoying fellowship with other people through the interbutts web machine, it's only sad if you want it to be sad.
It's actually really sad, dude. You'e on here making incoherent and illogical arguments that a child could disarm. Maybe you should spend some time with the 40 people you care about. Or are is there some reason you're choosing our company over theirs? Do they not have internet?
Why would my good time make you sad? Is this the power of caring about more than 100 people?
this 69fart69 fella has some interesting thoughts on phrenology, we're having a giggle
Aw, so you're here because you're lonely! That's so sweet, but i encourage you to spend time with your family. You know, because you love them so much you can't think about caring about anyone else in the world.
can’t think about caring about anyone else in the world.
Certainly not enough to be manipulated into simping for a stale movement. ..
Ah, you're still responding for some reason. Is your family not on speaking terms with you for some reason? :/
It's kinda fucked up you love them so much but you're forced to find social fulfillment here
Now I'm responding because I'm hoping you'll get cute and i can be all uWu as that ususally seems to smooth out ideological disconcert, at least on discord anyway.
Being in my family is a really big privilege, and we check it constantly.
No one you know is struggling to make ends meet?
Got em all out of the city wink wink
My family lives in a rural area actually. They're all struggling because the housing market has gone way up.
I have to be a little rude to get into it, but yes. I am familiar with material historical analysis, im also familiar with a number of other modes of historical analysis and i absolutely fucking never rely on just one.
The world is full of mysteries and the job of an analyst, materialist or not, is to solve those mysteries. Maybe ask yourself what one might actually glean from a person using phrenological tools and methods......
There are so many people who wish to remove methods of analysis from our collective understanding that I often whip out one of these canceled disciplines as an example of how scientific disciplines come and go as the scientific consensus is repeatedly fucked and born anew. Personally I ignore erasure-heads and take any analysis that yields a working theory.
I don't pay any attention to erasure-heads ordinarily, I suppose it makes sense that Phrenology would have been shitcanned in it's infancy...
...now if we wanna get into failures and improvements of agTech, well im sure to get banned.
what can communism offer to the, for lack of a better term, petit bourgeois?
Communism won't encounter this class of people without being fundamentally changed away from Communism.
What I know of dealing with this class of people is that they had to be murdered and gulag'd as de-centralized wealth is an aberration to Marxian system dynamics. --- I'm the kind of asshole who gets really rich on a commodity the commissar didn't think to count.
Why can "science get fucked"? How else can we measure the world if not through rigorous, repeated testing?
You're more than welcome here, just dont be a dick, and argue in good faith if you want to engage.
