• Abstraction [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Hear me out, perhaps the people who think the democrats are secret communists and absolutely despise them are not the best target to be radicalized into communists, no matter how bigoted you make that version of communism.

    • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      I mean, at some level its worth noting how Trump came in and got his base hooting and cheering for both President of Russia, former KGB director, and "This Guy Totally Looks Like a Communist" Vladimir Putin and Literally This Guy :kim-peace:

      So when you say "the chuds cannot be radicalized to Communism" I would counter by saying "maybe you just need the right salesman". I genuinely wonder if we'll ever see a day in which some Beijing backed SOE takes a 51% interest in the WaPo from Jeff Bezos and starts pumping Xi Jinping Thought into the brain-holes of the nation. We're the most propagandized nation on earth and I don't doubt for a second that someone could come in with a slick enough ad campaign to sell Americans on Communism.

      That said, this dipshit ain't it.

  • ssjmarx [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    you don't understand communism at all if you say to be anti-democrat as a communist

    :data-laughing:

      • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
        ·
        2 years ago

        You say that, but then the Lathe turns and you've got a nation full of Gonzalites running around smashing everyone's glasses.

  • Quaxamilliom [comrade/them]
    ·
    2 years ago

    We need a copypasta of that ancap getting his ass kicked after visiting the anarcho commune in greece but with a patsoc getting his ass kicked after trying to visit a super jingoist bar in middle America.

    • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      I was beat up by right MAGA in Mississippi

      I don't usually use forums or Hexbear, I usually just post comments on Patsoc blogs, but they didn't seem appropriate places to post my story. So here goes, I just wanted to share this with all of you.

      Nov 3 I flew to the deep south for a Deliverance type tour. Not a guide or packaged deal, just going around by myself. I paid for half of the trip with the wages I earned over the last two years, my dad paid for the other half. I am 19, I guess that is normal starting college and all. (Before that I worked for my dad's company part time, so I guess you could say he paid for all of it, lol).

      I did Georgia and then Alabama and then Mississippi next. I am a Patsoc so I wanted to see patriots in these places. Yes, I know they are different kinds of "patriot" and not really full patriots like us. I went to a Christian book store in Alabama and it had a lot of English books, but no Strasser or Patsoc. Like I said, I expected that, not a surprise.

      I went to Mississippi, which everyone knows is famous for its revolutionary patriotism, its economic crisis and everything going on right now. Here I found directions for a local MAGA center. I went and didn't see anybody, but it was covered in graffiti, mostly in Redneck so I couldn't read it. Whatever, I started taking pictures. Then some people came out and confronted me.

      This should have been my first warning sign something was not right, because photography is not a crime. They were not violent, but they were not friendly, like asking who I was, what I wanted. They all spoke good English actually. Not uncommon in Mississippi. I said I was a tourist and a Trump-supporter and I just wanted to take pictures. Then they got friendly and told me I should have asked first (but pictures are no NAP violation so I don't know why, but I didn't say anything) and they invited me inside.

      We hung out for a while and chewed tabacco (there is no good dank in the south as you might find out like in Cali, everyone chews tobacco which isn't as cool as it sounds). We started talking about politics and MAGA. I was trying to talk about the democrats, they were like yeah no doubt the democrats are bad. But they wanted to talk about communism, communism this and that. This is when we started to get into a debate.

      I told them that what they called communism is different from big government. They said communism is big government, and I agreed. That is what I am saying. Real communism is big government. And they said yes, that is what we are trying to get rid of. And I said no, but we don't even have that right now. We need more government. And everyone at the same time was like "nooo" we are MAGA, we are against big government. MAGA opposes communism.

      And I said but not MAGA-Communists. MAGA-Communists are the Trump supporters who support communism. I had a fanny pack (yeah, lame I know) for my camera and in that I had this yellow and black bowtie [This is where I start to lose it, maybe I can finish it later]

  • Awoo [she/her]
    ·
    edit-2
    2 years ago

    Pretending that Xi isn't a communist and that he is instead part of an international cabal to unseat the deepstate is more likely to succeed with these people than telling them that democrats aren't communists. Put his head alongside Putin, Modi, Trump and whoever else these goons think are fighting the deepstate and you can make them into unwitting supporters of anti-imperialism.

      • Awoo [she/her]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        Yes kinda.

        Really the point is that the "deep state" is an esoteric and borderline meaningless boogeyman that you can turn into anything you want. If you take a bunch of countries that conservatives see as having "conservative" values in that they're not loudly pro-lgbt or diversity etc etc and then call them the opposition to the deepstate who want these things, connect the dots up with anti-imperialism and you can make unintentional anti-imperialists out of conservatives with incredible levels of brainworms.

        After achieving that in a bunch of people the next step would be figuring out how to turn them into a fifth column via some sort of "become ungovernable" approach.

  • Rojo27 [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    I don't think ive ever seen any MAGA people that like Xi.

    • build_a_bear_group [he/him, comrade/them]
      ·
      2 years ago

      I haven't really seen any in the wild. But that is one part I could believe, is that some parts of MAGA might start liking him. In the same way you can find weirdo right-wingers that like Stalin. They see Western propaganda villainizing them as brutal, bloodthirsty, authoritarian dictators and say "that's so based!"

  • FidelCastro [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    This is what actual tailism looks like, in case anyone needed an example.

      • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
        ·
        2 years ago

        In What Is to Be Done?, Lenin describes tailism as to drag behind the most progressive elements of the working-class movement, choosing instead to reflect the most reactionary views of the working-class movement in their politics.

        Further, there follow things that are positively droll. “Just as human beings will reproduce in the old-fashioned way despite all the discoveries of natural science, so the birth of a new social order will come about, in the future too, mainly as a result of elemental outbursts, despite all the discoveries of social science and the increase in the number of conscious fighters” (p. 19). Just as our grandfathers in their old-fashioned wisdom used to say, Anyone can bring children into the world, so today the “modern socialists” (a la Nartsis Tuporylov)[37] say in their wisdom, Anyone can participate in the spontaneous birth of a new social order. We too hold that anyone can. All that is required for participation of that kind is to yield to Economism when Economism reigns and to terrorism when terrorism arises. Thus, in the spring of this year, when it was so important to utter a note of warning against infatuation with terrorism, Rabocheye Dyelo stood in amazement, confronted by a problem that was “new” to it. And now, six months after, when the problem has become less topical, it presents us at one and the same time with the declaration: “We think that it is not and should not be the task of Social-Democracy to counteract the rise of terroristic sentiments” (Rabocheye Dyelo, No. 10, p. 23), and with the Conference resolution: “The Conference regards systematic and aggressive terror as being inopportune” (Two Conferences, p. 18). How beautifully clear and coherent this is! Not to counteract, but to declare inopportune, and to declare it in such a way that unsystematic and defensive terror does not come within the scope of the “resolution”. It must be admitted that such a resolution is extremely safe and is fully insured against error, just as a man who talks, but says nothing, insures himself against error. All that is needed to frame such a resolution is an ability to keep at the tail end of the movement. When Iskra ridiculed Rabocheye Dyelo for declaring the question of terror to be new,[25] the latter angrily accused Iskra of “having the incredible effrontery to impose upon the Party organisation solutions of tactical questions proposed by a group of emigrant writers more than fifteen years ago” (p. 24). Effrontery. indeed, and what an overestimation of the conscious element — first to resolve questions theoretically beforehand, and then to try to convince the organisation, the Party, and the masses of the correctness of this solution![26] How much better it would be to repeat the elements and, without “imposing” anything upon anybody, swing with every “turn” — whether in the direction of Economism or in the direction of terrorism. Rabocheye Dyelo even generalises this great precept of worldly wisdom and accuses Iskra and Zarya of “setting up their programme against the movement, like a spirit hovering over the formless chaos” (p. 29). But what else is the function of Social-Democracy if not to be a “spirit” that not only hovers over the spontaneous movement, but also raises this movement to the level of “its programme”? Surely, it is not its function to drag at the tail of the movement. At best, this would be of no service to the movement; at worst, it would be exceedingly harmful. Rabocheye Dyelo, however, not only follows this “tactics-as-process”, but elevates it to a principle, so that it would be more correct to describe its tendency not as opportunism, but as tail-ism (from the word tail). And it must be admitted that those who are determined always to follow behind the movement and be its tail are absolutely and forever guaranteed against “belittling the spontaneous element of development”.

        Lenin's What is to be Done? Chapter 2, section 3

        • Sphere [he/him, they/them]
          ·
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          I should really not have tried to read and understand this while I have covid.

          (I think I get it, though, at least!)

        • Barboachacoa [he/him]
          ·
          2 years ago

          I won’t claim to have extracted the full value of that wisdom Lenin (may his name be praised) dropped there. But thank you for sharing and getting a lazy duck like me to read even a small amount of theory.

          If I understood: he is explaining that pandering to reactionary working class for the sake of them being proletariat is bad and harmful? A nazi plumber is a nazi first and shouldn’t be listened to?

          Is there special meaning to the way he uses terrorism or this a fancy way to reject propaganda of the deed?

          Thank you for the effort post. You’re always posting fire in the Ukraine threads, so thanks for that as well.

          • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            Here's an article that might help explain a bit on it. It's from the Communist Party of Ireland and it's on Tailism and Economism and directly touches on what Lenin talks about

            So in wider context, Lenin's talking about what he's seen in the Russian socialist movement at the time (it's prior to the outbreak of ww1 and the schism between the class traitors and the communists).

            On the first question: The pandering to the reactionary portions of the working class (tailing) tends to be a mix of economism and divisionist tactics, that is to say they are using the fact that class struggle is the primary contradiction and all else is adjacent contradictions to it as an excuse to outright dismiss and/or deride said adjacent contradictions in order to focus exclusively on class issues. On how it is economism Lenin says the following,

            “The Economists [limit] the tasks of the working class to an economic struggle for higher wages and better working conditions, etc., asserting that the political struggle [is] the business of the liberal bourgeoisie.”

            In the article from the CP Ireland it mentions that To give a clear example of the limits of the politics of economism, we can recall how women’s participation in the labour market was initially opposed within the trade union movement, on the grounds that it was a means used by capitalists for lowering wages for workers more generally. Other historical examples are how during the time of Z Foster when trade unions that were majority white working class men would go on strike the bourgeoise would hire black strikebreakers to replace them, as black americans at the time were commonly former slaves or children of former slaves whom lived in abject poverty due to the fact that many freed slaves were simply emancipated with no education, training, or wealth and had to struggle to accumulate wealth to increase their living standards, and instead of extending a hand of solidarity to the black strikebreakers and offering to fight for them to join them as coworkers in the union if they stopped strikebreaking and joined them in the strike they instead would attack the strikebreakers and denounce their bosses attempt to replace them with a cheaper and inferior workforce. A Communist would see such events as opportunities to further strengthen the union movement by further expanding the power of the union through the inclusion of all races and agitate among the union workers to educate them on the material benefits of such actions as they're able to. A tailist would see such events as attacks on the working class by the bourgeoise and their lackeys and agitate among the union workers to reinforce union solidarity by undermining proletarian solidarity. A modern example could be the fight against any attempt to paying "illegal" workers minimum wage and extending labor rights and protections to them, or how a workplace union would self-sabotage because of the belief of some workers that their skills are superior to other workers therefore instead of fighting for a collective increase of benefits instead fight to undermine the collective for their own material benefit, or the portrayal of starbucks workers as not being workers as a form of dividing the working class along arbitrary lines against itself.

            On the nazi bit, lets say that nazi plumber's in a plumber's union. That plumber's just one voting member. They may try to exert influence within the union on other members with their dogshit ideas, but their dogshit ideas loose against the direct material interests and financial benefits that the union wins. A strong and militant union that consistently fights for it's members will leave these kinds of dipshits in the dust. They'll either settle down because their material needs are met and can hopefully be integrated into the wider pro-worker culture they're a part of or simply shut the fuck up because they know they're in the overwhelming minority.

            On the question of terrorism, simply put, Lenin and the communists rejects political terrorism and the "propaganda of the deed" as listed in the article titled "Revolutionary Adventurism". Let me the section that directly answers your question. Do read the whole thing as it's an interesting reading from someone who's brother was executed as a proponent of the propaganda of the deed. Also you can really see some of the character of Lenin come out in how he quote's the Left SR's writings and then immediately in brackets dunks on them. I personally interpret every time a [!] comes up as him going :jesse-wtf:

            The Social-Democrats will always warn against adventurism and ruthlessly expose illusions which inevitably end in complete disappointment. We must bear in mind that a revolutionary party is worthy of its name only when it quides [sic.] in deed the movement of a revolutionary class. We must bear in mind that any popular movement assumes an infinite variety of forms, is constantly developing new forms and discarding the old, and effecting modifications or new combinations of old and new forms. It is our duty to participate actively in this process of working out means and methods of struggle. When the students’ movement became sharper, we began to call on the workers to come to the aid of the students (Iskra, No. 2[See present edition, Vol. 4, pp. 414-19.—Ed.]) without taking it upon our selves to forecast the forms of the demonstrations, without promising that they would result in an immediate transference of strength, in lighting up the mind, or a special elusiveness. When the demonstrations became consolidated, we began to call for their organisation and for the arming of the masses, and put forward the task of preparing a popular uprising. Without in the least denying violence and terrorism in principle, we demanded work for the preparation of such forms of violence as were calculated to bring about the direct participation of the masses and which guaranteed that participation. We do not close our eyes to the difficulties of this task, but will work at it steadfastly and persistently, undeterred by the objections that this is a matter of the “vague and distant future.” Yes, gentlemen, we stand for future and not only past forms of the movement. We give preference to long and arduous work on what promises a future rather than to an “easy” repetition of what has been condemned by the past. We shall always expose people who in word war against hackneyed dogmas and in practice hold exclusively to such moth-eaten and harmful commonplaces as the theory of the transference of strength, the difference between big work and petty work and, of course, the theory of single combat. “Just as in the days of yore the peoples’ battles were fought out by their leaders in single combat, so now the terrorists will win Russia’s freedom in single combat with the autocracy,” the April 3 leaflet concludes. The mere reprinting of such sentences provides their refutation.

            Anyone who really carries on his revolutionary work in conjunction with the class struggle of the proletariat very well knows, sees and feels what vast numbers of immediate and direct demands of the proletariat (and of the sections of the people capable of supporting the latter) remain unsatisfied. He knows that in very many places, throughout vast areas, the working people are literally straining to go into action, and that their ardour runs to waste because of the scarcity of literature and leadership, the lack of forces and means in the revolutionary organisations. And we find ourselves—we see that we find our selves—in the same old vicious circle that has so long hemmed in the Russian revolution like an omen of evil. On the one hand, the revolutionary ardour of the insufficiently enlightened and unorganised crowd runs to waste. On the other hand, shots fired by the “elusive individuals” who are losing faith in the possibility of marching in formation and working hand in hand with the masses also end in smoke.

            But things can still be put to rights, comrades! Loss of faith in a real cause is the rare exception rather than the rule. The urge to commit terrorist acts is a passing mood. Then let the Social-Democrats close their ranks, and we shall fuse the militant organisation of revolutionaries and the mass heroism of the Russian proletariat into a single whole!

            • Barboachacoa [he/him]
              ·
              2 years ago

              That’s an awesome response. Thanks for putting so much effort into explaining. Felt like having a based professor of the sort chuds are terrified by. We need a :standing-ovation: emoji or something.

  • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    grifters couldn't get a good grift going with leftists or radlibs, now trying to milk conservatives for income

    it will not work

    stop worrying about MAGA communism

    • ssjmarx [he/him]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      If Haz wants to grift he needs to go the "I used to be a communist but I escaped here's why the left is a cult" route then show clips of that one meeting with caleb maupin and the lincoln head.

      • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        that would probably work, too

        I've never watched :funny-clown-hammer: or haz but I suspect their hangup is they want to keep their current fans and add in new ones and the full "i'm a chud now for reals" turn is too risky

  • invo_rt [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Communism wants to focus on America

    Yeah, I definitely want to focus on America lol

  • AssadCurse [none/use name]
    ·
    2 years ago

    I love to see two incompatible flavors of brainworms attempt to mix, and just settle as insoluble like oil and water

  • HornyOnMain
    ·
    2 years ago

    critical support for the batshit insane fascists against the other batshit insane fascists who pretend to be communists?