City police most likely, gotta say I'm not a fan of the recurring trend in China where local gov fuck shit up and the higher-ups have to come in and clean up the mess. At the moment I wonder if the central gov could've handed down clearer guidelines on Covid restrictions so the local administrators have an easier time implementing policies that seem sensible to the public. Instead we see these local gov wildly oscillating between tightening and relaxing Covid restrictions, burning through public goodwill in the process.
Tbh I think China needs to rethink their Covid policy.
It's clearly costing a lot of both political capital and actual money and Covid isn't going away ever. A zero Covid policy would make sense if the rest of the world acted accordingly, which they didn't and won't.
I think the best you can do is vaxx as much people as possible and keep more mild restrictions in place like masks in public buildings and such.
What's the alternative? Keeping this up forever? I just don't think that's realistic at all, people are gonna be pissed if they have to go through lockdowns every few months for the rest of their lives.
Lol, why even bother with Socialism then? It's all part of the same struggle. We're living through a massive disabling event and you want them to defer to Capital. That is liberalism.
I dunno maybe I'm too drunk on a western viewpoint on this, maybe the zero-covid policy isn't really a big deal to most Chinese but it seems like people are kinda fucking tired of it, nobody wants to live in a state of emergency for the rest of their lives.
I'm not sure why you couldn't minimize the impact with mandatory vaccinations (maybe even yearly) and a bit less restrictions rather than full lockdowns all of the time.
Yeah, most people here don't know Chinese people who actually have to live through zero-Covid. From my experience, only retirees are actually supportive of the policies with everyone else at best tolerating it for the sake of the more vulnerable. Yes, living in a depraved society that's trying to pretend Covid isn't real is a dystopian nightmare, but the million dollar question is do Chinese people realize that zero-Covid is preferable to a society that has given up on Covid?
This is the classic tailist vs commandist problem that all orgs have to face. We all know the science about what society ought to do to combat Covid. But what happens when that society
doesn't fully see the merit of zero-Covid? Like, do people here honestly believe zero-Covid would've been possible in any Western society that prioritizes personal freedom over collective health even if that society were socialist? Unless that society's socialist party just straight up enforces martial law and drops the hammer on protesters and people who break quarantines, no Western society, socialist or capitalist, has the popular mandate to enforce zero-Covid, certainly not a zero-Covid that's projected to last for years.
Fortunately, China is not of the West and various precautions like wearing surgical masks have long being normalized before Covid. But their patience isn't gonna last forever. Like, no present human society, not even China, is going to tolerate living under zero-Covid conditions for more than a decade.
Maybe if they had access to a more effective vaccine, and if the rest of the world wasn’t constantly incubating vaccine & immunity evasion. Capital wants a global market to play in, but won’t accept the governance required to ensure that market doesn’t kill the host.
Don't they have a better vaccine by now? If they don't then I guess the caution is more understandable, but I though their vaccines aren't THAT much worse than Pfizer & friends.
They have the vaccine, but peoples don't want to take it. We have to realized that China with 1.4 billions peoples will have different opinions on vaccination. The cpc achievement on educating the population is outstanding, but that doesn't mean there not gonna be percentage religious nuts that act like western right winger Christian nuts.
How do you know that for sure? It's millions dead in a shithole like the US where the government just doesn't give any fucks. I'm not convinced there isn't a more sensible middle-of-the-road way between constant state of emergency and just not giving any fucks.
Also don't Cuba and Vietnam have looser Covid policies? How are they faring wrt to the death rate?
Millions of people weren't fighting against covid restrictions in the US either, but western media took a handful of astroturfed protestors and turned them into a country killing movement. You have no idea what is happening in China right now anymore than I do.
Billionaire think tanks and bourgeois business owners in the West hag poured endless amounts of time and money into fighting covid safeguarding measures.
I think the best you can do is vaxx as much people as possible and keep more mild restrictions in place like masks in public buildings and such.
You're talking about policy while ignoring outcomes.
How many deaths are an acceptable quantity to you exactly? How many families are you willing to ruin?
Instead of framing this purely in terms of policy you should frame this purely in terms of outcomes and then ask yourself if you think those outcomes are acceptable.
One thousand? Ten thousand? One hundred thousand? How many are you ok with?
Lockdowns aren't just mild inconveniences for all people though. There's a whole bunch of people suffering from depression, anxiety and other mental conditions that probably take it way harder than most. Also people requiring regular medical attention in hospitals have a way tougher time and there's probably gonna be some gaps in the system where some people weren't given the needed attention during lockdowns. The Shanghai lockdown had a bunch of logistical issues like that.
So how many of those kinds of people are ok to suffer to save how many people from Covid death?
I don't think you really answered my question, you substituted it with another one. I wasn't asking you rhetorically, I was sincerely asking you what you think is an acceptable number of families destroyed?
The problem is many peoples in China are like peoples in the west, a lot of them unfortunately are religious Christian nuts that anti vax. Beijing tried to mandate vax and they have to scrapped it after peoples complain. Seem like majority Chinese peoples choose zero covid that take the jab mandatory.
They're actually in the process of changing it right now, though I don't know specifically what that means I know they've basically concluded that it doesn't make sense anymore and people are tired of it. There was an announcement/news article and a big argument on this site over it lmao.
Yeah. I'm not exactly surprised given the scale and complexity of China and at least there usually is some intervention from the national party afterward, but this sort of thing obviously shouldn't be allowed to happen in the first place.
Is that city police or Foxconn security? Fucked up either way.
City police most likely, gotta say I'm not a fan of the recurring trend in China where local gov fuck shit up and the higher-ups have to come in and clean up the mess. At the moment I wonder if the central gov could've handed down clearer guidelines on Covid restrictions so the local administrators have an easier time implementing policies that seem sensible to the public. Instead we see these local gov wildly oscillating between tightening and relaxing Covid restrictions, burning through public goodwill in the process.
Tbh I think China needs to rethink their Covid policy.
It's clearly costing a lot of both political capital and actual money and Covid isn't going away ever. A zero Covid policy would make sense if the rest of the world acted accordingly, which they didn't and won't.
I think the best you can do is vaxx as much people as possible and keep more mild restrictions in place like masks in public buildings and such.
:LIB:
What's the alternative? Keeping this up forever? I just don't think that's realistic at all, people are gonna be pissed if they have to go through lockdowns every few months for the rest of their lives.
Lol, why even bother with Socialism then? It's all part of the same struggle. We're living through a massive disabling event and you want them to defer to Capital. That is liberalism.
I dunno maybe I'm too drunk on a western viewpoint on this, maybe the zero-covid policy isn't really a big deal to most Chinese but it seems like people are kinda fucking tired of it, nobody wants to live in a state of emergency for the rest of their lives.
I'm not sure why you couldn't minimize the impact with mandatory vaccinations (maybe even yearly) and a bit less restrictions rather than full lockdowns all of the time.
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Yeah, I just live in the alternative where I’m terrified of catching a disease that will permanently debilitate me every time I leave my door.
I would shoot someone to live under zero covid. I would happily take that forever than this hellish nightmare forever
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Yeah, most people here don't know Chinese people who actually have to live through zero-Covid. From my experience, only retirees are actually supportive of the policies with everyone else at best tolerating it for the sake of the more vulnerable. Yes, living in a depraved society that's trying to pretend Covid isn't real is a dystopian nightmare, but the million dollar question is do Chinese people realize that zero-Covid is preferable to a society that has given up on Covid?
This is the classic tailist vs commandist problem that all orgs have to face. We all know the science about what society ought to do to combat Covid. But what happens when that society doesn't fully see the merit of zero-Covid? Like, do people here honestly believe zero-Covid would've been possible in any Western society that prioritizes personal freedom over collective health even if that society were socialist? Unless that society's socialist party just straight up enforces martial law and drops the hammer on protesters and people who break quarantines, no Western society, socialist or capitalist, has the popular mandate to enforce zero-Covid, certainly not a zero-Covid that's projected to last for years.
Fortunately, China is not of the West and various precautions like wearing surgical masks have long being normalized before Covid. But their patience isn't gonna last forever. Like, no present human society, not even China, is going to tolerate living under zero-Covid conditions for more than a decade.
Maybe if they had access to a more effective vaccine, and if the rest of the world wasn’t constantly incubating vaccine & immunity evasion. Capital wants a global market to play in, but won’t accept the governance required to ensure that market doesn’t kill the host.
Don't they have a better vaccine by now? If they don't then I guess the caution is more understandable, but I though their vaccines aren't THAT much worse than Pfizer & friends.
They have the vaccine, but peoples don't want to take it. We have to realized that China with 1.4 billions peoples will have different opinions on vaccination. The cpc achievement on educating the population is outstanding, but that doesn't mean there not gonna be percentage religious nuts that act like western right winger Christian nuts.
"Minimizing the impact" is still millions dead and disabled.
How do you know that for sure? It's millions dead in a shithole like the US where the government just doesn't give any fucks. I'm not convinced there isn't a more sensible middle-of-the-road way between constant state of emergency and just not giving any fucks.
Also don't Cuba and Vietnam have looser Covid policies? How are they faring wrt to the death rate?
They tried that in Beijing and peoples rejected it.
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Millions of people weren't fighting against covid restrictions in the US either, but western media took a handful of astroturfed protestors and turned them into a country killing movement. You have no idea what is happening in China right now anymore than I do.
Billionaire think tanks and bourgeois business owners in the West hag poured endless amounts of time and money into fighting covid safeguarding measures.
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You're talking about policy while ignoring outcomes.
How many deaths are an acceptable quantity to you exactly? How many families are you willing to ruin?
Instead of framing this purely in terms of policy you should frame this purely in terms of outcomes and then ask yourself if you think those outcomes are acceptable.
One thousand? Ten thousand? One hundred thousand? How many are you ok with?
Lockdowns aren't just mild inconveniences for all people though. There's a whole bunch of people suffering from depression, anxiety and other mental conditions that probably take it way harder than most. Also people requiring regular medical attention in hospitals have a way tougher time and there's probably gonna be some gaps in the system where some people weren't given the needed attention during lockdowns. The Shanghai lockdown had a bunch of logistical issues like that.
So how many of those kinds of people are ok to suffer to save how many people from Covid death?
As if death is the only thing to save people from wrt covid.
Depression and anxiety are terrible but not on the same scale as becoming permanently disabled.
I don't think you really answered my question, you substituted it with another one. I wasn't asking you rhetorically, I was sincerely asking you what you think is an acceptable number of families destroyed?
wasn't there some news on that front recently?
that they are moving to relax restrictions?
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The problem is many peoples in China are like peoples in the west, a lot of them unfortunately are religious Christian nuts that anti vax. Beijing tried to mandate vax and they have to scrapped it after peoples complain. Seem like majority Chinese peoples choose zero covid that take the jab mandatory.
They're actually in the process of changing it right now, though I don't know specifically what that means I know they've basically concluded that it doesn't make sense anymore and people are tired of it. There was an announcement/news article and a big argument on this site over it lmao.
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Yeah. I'm not exactly surprised given the scale and complexity of China and at least there usually is some intervention from the national party afterward, but this sort of thing obviously shouldn't be allowed to happen in the first place.
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