Isn't this sort of tautological? Like obviously if you have more restrictions on anything it's harder to stay within those bounds and if you have no restrictions you can't go out of bounds.
Most people have some restrictions. You can't fucntion in society without some restraint on your sexuality unless you're ace. Consent is the main one outside of conservative / religious sexual ethics, and if you're familiar with BDSM and poly culture, you'll find that pulling more permissiveness and promiscuousness and kinky shit off in a wholesome way requires to put a lot of thought into finding out what exactly your partner(s) consent to. My experience when hanging out with people from these crowds was never that they're just freewheeling lunatics, it's just that they've found ways to guide and direct their urges instead of repressing them.
Kinksters invent kinky scenarios like free wheeling lunatics who fear neither god nor death.
Responsible kinksters work through those scenarios with their play partners like bomb technicians trying to defuse a nuke.
Not necessarily. Like if you have a few boundaries you might find it easier to maintain those few. As compared to a ton and then just being like yolo I broke one let's break em all!
I think it’s that people without those restrictions tend to actually have an easier time staying within the bounds of what the conservatives’ restrictions are.
We should form some kind of support group, then have it evolve in to a weird cult that promises us vague metaphysical powers and spiritual fulfillment as long as we don't break our streak.
For you, the night you sat on the couch instead of letting nine strangers raw dog you was the best night of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
i dont think its necessarily abstinence, think conservatives who are homophobic politically but are having gay sex
incongruity from someone less conservative might be being vanilla when they want to be kinky? or engaging with fetishes they don't like? idk
So this just sounds like everyone* is horny and some people get upset about that they're horny.
If only I was :ace-heart:, instead I am foolishly upset I am horny
This is my theory for all the neo-puritanical BS. Christian Fascist purity culture has had a deep effect on the wider culture and people are carrying it with them and reproducing it unwittingly, applying their discomfort with sexuality to whatever situation they find themselves in.
Conservative sexual values surrounding abstinence, heterosexuality, religion/spirituality, and commitment were strongly associated with each other, and participants endorsing these values tended to be higher in religiousness. Sexual values surrounding consent, privacy, and “anything goes” were linked to one another, and participants supporting these values tended to be lower in religiousness.
I'd like to see how many of the rabid homophobes that call everybody a groomer have consent on their list of sexual values at all.
Obviously, "consent" is only valid when it is "strict heterosexual monogamy within a patriarchal household". The Good Christian Woman submits to her husband out of her love for him and for God. Anything that tricks people into deviating from God's Law is a Satanic Grooming Agenda. The idea of "consent" only applies when you consent to follow God. Everything else is the product of malice or deception.
i do not understand what "nature" means as a sexual value to endorse/not endorse. does it mean sex outside? because outside is where ants are.
The conclusion seems reasonable, but there's lot of weight being put onto self-declaring sexual values. Who cares what someone says they value? If you say you have a set of sexual values, and then have a hard time sticking to them, then you clearly don't actually value those things. My read of this study, or at least as described here, is that conservatives are more likely to lie about their sexual values, presumably because of social pressure to express certain values. Either that or there's a subset of people who don't properly understand their own sexual values, and that subset tends toward the conservative.
If you say you have a set of sexual values, and then have a hard time sticking to them, then you clearly don’t actually value those things
I don't think that follows, but I still like the gist of it.
I'm assuming we're referring to people who display a consistent pattern of behavior that violates their stated values, or who experience significant stress and unhappiness sticking to a set of values. And of course I'm assuming that we're talking about people who have enough agency to choose to go with or against their values.
If you say you value things, but you act in ways that are opposite to your stated values, or you resent having to stick to your stated values to the point that it substantially affects your wellbeing, then in what way do you value those things? If, say, someone states on the research survey that they value marital fidelity, but regularly engage in infidelity, or greatly resent having to practice fidelity (or both), then the only indication that they value fidelity would be they said so on the survey. If we're defining a person's values as whatever they say they are, then fine, but all that tells you is that some people are lying, or lack self-awareness.
My point is that the logical conclusion of the study isn't "people with conservative sexual values have trouble sticking to them" but rather "conservatives are more likely to lie or be wrong about their sexual values". Lots of people have genuinely conservative sexual values, and are more or less content with them, but there are more sexually unhappy/confused conservatives than other groups. We can speculate on why that's the case, but that's a more descriptive approach to the conclusion, imo.
If you say you have a set of sexual values, and then have a hard time sticking to them, then you clearly don’t actually value those things.
You can aspire to something without achieving it. When sexuality is viewed as a kind-of weakness and celibacy/monogamy a form of strength, then "sexual values" are seen as a kind-of endurance challenge. People who adhere to values are seen as well-disciplined and emotionally strong. Those that routinely violate social taboos are viewed as unreliable and weak.
conservatives are more likely to lie about their sexual values, presumably because of social pressure to express certain values
I could also be that these values are how they perceive others. A conservative sees an unmarried woman with a long line of boyfriends as a "slut" while a progressive sees her as "experienced" and "attractive". We may be conflating "values" in the moral sense with "value" in the monetary sense. If my daughter has sex, I cannot auction her for a high bride price to another like-minded conservative.
You can aspire to something without achieving it.
This headline makes it seem like people with conservative values are bad at sticking to them, but I'm suggesting that a lot of people with "conservative values" are virtue signalling, with no intent of aspiring to their stated values except in a preformative way (if that). Let's compare someone in a happy marriage who is sometimes tempted by infidelity, with someone who states publicly that they are a traditional family type while being a serial philanderer. The former clearly has aspirations to a set of values that they struggle with in a normal way. The latter clearly doesn't value what they say they value. It's bad science to equate these data points unless the data you're looking for is merely what people say about themselves. All you're going to get about a study of what people say about themselves is that people talk a lot of shit. I'm not sure we're short on evidence for that.
I'll grant that there's a semantic argument here, but if we're talking about something as fundamental as 'value' then the semantics matter.
This headline makes it seem like people with conservative values are bad at sticking to them, but I’m suggesting that a lot of people with “conservative values” are virtue signalling, with no intent of aspiring to their stated values except in a preformative way (if that).
That's definitely possible. It's also possible that - as I noted below - these aren't personal values they hold themselves to so much as valuations they use to determine the worth of others. And one that an older, less sexually active cohort imposes on a younger generation as a form of commodification.
It’s bad science to equate these data points unless the data you’re looking for is merely what people say about themselves.
I would argue that values and behaviors are fundamentally different human qualities, so conflating them to declare people hypocrites misses how and why these standards are set.
As a counterexample, a recovering alcoholic can value sobriety very highly while regularly failing to exhibit the behavior. This, in contrast, to a social drinker who doesn't see much merit to teatoddling, while rarely getting more than buzzed. The value of restraint is prized in the individual who lacks it, while it seems trivial to an individual who enjoys it in abundance.
I’ll grant that there’s a semantic argument here, but if we’re talking about something as fundamental as ‘value’ then the semantics matter.
I agree. I just think the framing is off.
As a social convention, individuals who flaunt their sexuality and their polyamory do absolutely suffer a social stigma in conservative communities. Particularly if they trade on their sexuality for some perceived benefit.
By contrast, more liberal communities can view individuals with a long and stories sexual history (particularly women) as exemplary and worthy of emulation.
The fact that one community has more instances of infidelity than another has nothing to do with whether they consider the practice admirable. In fact, the opposite can potentially be true. The conservative-leaning Cheerleader/Athlete pair might have a far more reactionary view towards sex simply because they've experienced a lot of sexual drama and don't consider it worth the price of admission. The more progressive but less sexually adventurous PMC types might romanticize promiscuity simply because they've only ever had relatively chaste and monogamous lifestyles.
I would argue that values and behaviors are fundamentally different human qualities, so conflating them to declare people hypocrites misses how and why these standards are set.
Values and behaviors are different, but I struggle with the idea of people's self-declared values when they end up being unrelated to their behaviors. Values drive behaviors, within a set of material boundaries. The alcoholic who wants to b sober is struggling with a complex dependency that makes it very difficult for them to live their values in a very real and material way. That's where this sort of data becomes useful, because it then becomes about how to close the gap between values and behavior. There are plenty of alcoholics who might agree that sobriety is generally good, but who don't actually care to practice it. I would argue that the former has a claim on sobriety as a value while the latter clearly only has an academic appreciation for it, but if you gave them both a survey and said "do you value sobriety?" they might give the same answer. Without being able to point to some material consequence of holding certain values, stated values are as meaningful as what hat you're wearing that day. It's still data, I just don't get how the data is useful.
Values and behaviors are different, but I struggle with the idea of people’s self-declared values when they end up being unrelated to their behaviors.
Again, I'd point you back to the economic conception of value. I can value bread even though I don't know how to bake. In fact, I may value bread more highly precisely because I don't know how to bake.
The alcoholic who wants to b sober is struggling with a complex dependency that makes it very difficult for them to live their values in a very real and material way. That’s where this sort of data becomes useful, because it then becomes about how to close the gap between values and behavior. There are plenty of alcoholics who might agree that sobriety is generally good, but who don’t actually care to practice it. I would argue that the former has a claim on sobriety as a value while the latter clearly only has an academic appreciation for it, but if you gave them both a survey and said “do you value sobriety?” they might give the same answer.
I'd argue that there's another measure of value, and that's in how inebriated people are treated.
If I'm openly hostile towards other people who've had to much to drink, that's as much a reflection of my values as my own behaviors. If, for instance, I endorse a return to Prohibition or if I believe a coworker who drinks on the job should be fired (or arrested), then I am expressing a value independent of my consumption habits. Using "drunk" or "lush" as a slur, accusing people of being drunk when they make mistakes or disagree with me, etc, etc. All signals that I consider excess alcohol consumption a moral failing.
I agree that a simple survey answer "Is alcoholism Good / Bad / Neutral?" might not be the best method of evaluating merit. But you can definitely probe deeper, asking how someone might respond to the consumption and inebriated behaviors of a neighbor, friend, family member, or coworker, in order to establish morality.
If I’m openly hostile towards other people who’ve had to much to drink, that’s as much a reflection of my values as my own behaviors. If, for instance, I endorse a return to Prohibition or if I believe a coworker who drinks on the job should be fired (or arrested), then I am expressing a value independent of my consumption habits. Using “drunk” or “lush” as a slur, accusing people of being drunk when they make mistakes or disagree with me, etc, etc. All signals that I consider excess alcohol consumption a moral failing.
Ah, yes, I see where you're getting at. I'm thinking about this in terms of "I have values as an individual, and here's how they relate to my behavior" but you're absolutely right that my values extend to how I perceive others, regardless of my own behavior. In that sense, it definitely matters what I say and how I feel about those values, even if I'm a hypocrite.
I agree that a simple survey answer “Is alcoholism Good / Bad / Neutral?” might not be the best method of evaluating merit. But you can definitely probe deeper, asking how someone might respond to the consumption and inebriated behaviors of a neighbor, friend, family member, or coworker, in order to establish morality.
I've done a bit of survey design stuff over the years and I've found that asking people about their perception of others is a great way of getting to a more authentic answer about their own beliefs. It can then be used as a cross reference to what they say about themselves. Good addition.
Regardless, I acknowledge I'm being overly prescriptive in some ways here and there's a lot of nuance in this discussion. 'Values' are a complex issue, and more than anything I'm poking at whether this study is saying what it appears to be saying.
