Here in (country) everyone on the left hates surrogacy with a burning passion, since it involves rich people essentially buying babies and using the bodies of poor women for their own benefit. Even the right wing parties feel sliiightly uncomfortable discussing said topics (with the exception of the extremely liberal ones who also love to act all european and modern).
Even sitcoms such as Friends or Always Sunny in Philadelphia had plotlines where this happened and they didn't pointed out how some rich fuck was taking advantage of a poor person. (Well, it was a sitcom so the poor person was either an asshole or doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, but you get the picture: whitewashing surrogacy is also bad).
So yeah, what's the deal with that? No one points out how fucked up it is???
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1- Bloodline fetishism
2- Long waiting times for babies and they don't want kids/teens
It's so gross man. I've heard multiple people tell me they'd "never raise a child that isn't [their] own". Like Holy shit man, what's your problem? It's a fucking kid looking for a parent. Yet Q creeps spend all day online trying to "save the children". Hypocrisy and all that, blah blah blah.
i had someone tell me "well it's different when it's your own kid" and i quickly let her know that, despite my complex relationship with my step father, i respect him far more as a father and a man than my biological father who was and is a manipulative, abusive asshole.
i think people who really think this way are just naive, if not cognitively underdeveloped. they are among that cohort with married parents and "stability" or whatever, so they think biological relation is a key ingredient for empathy and care. my sister is a social worker and among her many stories is the lack of love, affection or kindness some people have for the children they create.
empathy and love are abilities and some people think their limitations are universal.
It also comes from people that would surprise you. I told my parents years ago that I was thinking of just adopting kids because I didn't want to bring any into this world and my mother said "it's just not the same". Excuse me? I have 2 first cousins with whom we're close who were adopted into this family. So how exactly do you think of them then? It's just so gross man.
The weirdest part is that my mother was so desperate to become a grandmother at that time (she still wants to be but I think she's altered her priorities) and yet she was still being picky about HOW she would become a grandma. The whole interaction was so gross and it further solidified my decision to keep some distance from my parents. At least my father I trust would love them (unless they came out as gay later in life 🙄).
oh, 100%. the friend who blurted that out to me is not who i would have expected to harbor that kind of sentiment, which is why i pushed back. i also had some pushback from family when i talked about the same topic, for different reasons. i.e. i wasn't/am not interested in reproducing personally. i like kids. i've worked with kids. they're funny.
i was explaining this and there was a big freakout, "don't you want kids!!" and i'm saying, "i am older now. pretty much everybody out there now already has some kids, so i'm likely to get some as a package deal. and if i get real charged up about it and come into enormous wealth, i could adopt a kid. either way, i would be passing on what i think is important: my values, my knowledge, my sense of humor, etc. not like myopia, baldness, and heart disease." and there was definitely still pushback like "no it needs to be biologically yours for some reason i can't articulate without looking like a complete asshole" which eventually petered out.
i think a lot of it has to do with media conditioning. if you go off road with your life plan, people expect or even feel owed an explanation. and the road in america is making miniature versions of yourself, which is apparently the only way some people can ever experience true, unconditional love: looking at a small, cuter version of themselves that is utterly dependent and malleable.
How dare people have the biological drive to reproduce
That's not the issue here. If people want to have their own kids that's fine, I'm not against it. This mindset of only raising your own "biological children" though naturally supposes that stepmothers and stepfathers, and those who adopt children are not parents because they didn't have their own children.
I don't see why someone's natural instinct to rear children should care whether or not the child is biologically related to them. That's what I take issue with.
And that's what I'm fuckin rolling my eyes over. Yea humans are social and have more instinctive drive to care for the children of others than other species do but you're literally going "I TAKE ISSUE WITH THE ENTIRE EVOLUTION OF SEXUAL REPRODUCTION!"
Humans naturally lived in small communities, where every adult was involved in the parentage/rearing of every child in the community. Obviously each child's biological parents were the primary rearer, but the Western idea that everyone is atomised and separate from the greater society and that you're only responsibility is to yourself and your biological family is outrageous. Being unwilling to be any sort of parental figure to a child in need is frankly unnatural. Humans have a natural drive to parent children and that drive doesn't stop where the genetics do.
If you're not passing on your genes there is literally no point to sexual reproduction
I already know humans are social and have more of a drive to care for others children than most species, I literally already mentioned it, idk why you reiterated.
You can talk about how people should care for the children of others all day and you'll be right but it's seriously mind numbingly stupid to go "I just don't understand why someone's instinct cares if they are biologically related to you" when that's literally the point of the fucking instinct, that's why it exists.
It's like throwing your hands up at all the horny people in the world just flummoxed about why they want to have all this sex. It's because of millions of years of evolution inculcating a desire to reproduce, its not fucking hard to grok
And yet there are people with the drive to be motherly/fatherly/etc without having the desire to reproduce. The drive to parent can exist independently of the drive to reproduce, and while they're intricately tied I don't understand how someone can completely turn off that drive to parent. Perhaps it makes sense to you, but it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe that's because I'm one of the ones I mentioned above, I like being an uncle/fatherly figure but don't care to have children of my own.
Guess I don't understand what you're trying to explain, and tbh I don't really want to. So let's call it here.
fuck your "biological drives" that's legit fascist bullshit. when there are existing children who need parents it is absolutely fucked up to create a new child just because the existing ones have the wrong genes
"Literally the entire evolution of sexual reproduction is fascist shit!! Humans aren't animals and are immune to their nature as biological beings, just be ENLIGHTENED!"
You're an idiot fuck off
Imagine interpreting me stating a fact as me supporting it as good
you're not a wild animal, and justifying unethical bullshit with "muh biological drives" does in fact make you reactionary
Yeah, we are. We're Social Animals, and consequently significantly smarter & more complex than ones that aren't; we are more capable of self-reflection, and self-restraint as a consequence of it. Nevertheless, that is in fact still a kind of animal, and we are still going to be driven impulses to survive & to reproduce ingrained into us by the processes of evolution. You want to argue against this from a moralistic basis, which is nice, but you are also kind of just abandoning the principles of historical materialism in order to maintain that.
How would "modes of production", or the material bases of society have any relation to how we organize ourselves socially if we could just do whatever we thought was "the best idea" at any time, completely independent of our material needs or natural impulses?
I'm going to assume you're here to discuss in good faith, so I'm going to ask you to reread what you quoted and then perhaps look up the definition of "wild animal." You are not, in fact, a wild animal.
Why don't you just explain to me directly what you think the significance of that, to me somewhat pedantic & inscrutable, distinction is?
Come on. It's very difficult to believe that you don't understand what a wild animal is.
What I'm saying is that you are a moral agent. You can make decisions based on what is right, not what feels good or what your instincts tell you to do.
"What is right" is not a fixed proposition, it's historically determined, and within a society of classes it's determined by the material interests of that class which rules over all others.
I can choose to do many things, but it is foolish to expect me to choose self-destruction, and unwise of me to pursue it.
Adopting a child as opposed to creating a new one is self-destruction???
Lmao believe whatever you want
Continue to be puzzled at people engaging in a behavior which has been unchanged for forever
Continue thinking I'm endorsing it because you're too fucking stupid to separate the observation from your thinking I believe it's good
sarcastically saying "how dare people do x" is not an endorsement of x?
Im not going to blame the human species for not, as one, rising above being horny things made of meat sculpted by an absolutely blind process with only one "goal," the continued reproduction of that meat.
That doesn't mean I think everybody SHOULD, IN AN IDEAL SOCIETY, have some fucking right to have their own kid just because. Just that Im not enough of a twat to like blame people for desires and urges that are fucking built into them.
Like damn dawg
do you apply this same logic to all selfish, unethical acts taken as a result of biological urges?
No, your expression of the "biological need to reproduce" ideology is fascist. You're coming onto a supposedly marxist website and doing the "I'm actually just stating biological facts" reactionaries do when they try to do an is/ought fallacy to promote quasi-nihilist pure-id bullshit. It's dumb. Actually use your brain beyond fake buzzwords and put an onus on humans to use their brains and analysis over impulses.
Humans having the capability of doing this doesn't mean they are above and disconnected from biologically driven urges and telling yourself otherwise is fucking idealism. Don't call me a fucking reactionary just because you're too fucking stupid to understand what I'm saying, or to separate the statement that people have this drive from your idea that I'm fucking endorsing a society built on it.
People should raise kids not related to them and not be ffucking weirdos about it, but you people who are acting absolutely befuddled over someone wanting offspring that carries their genes are even fucking weirder weirdos.
I literally don't even think people should be allowed to be parents so fuck each and every one of you acting like I'm some fucking fascist nuclear family advocate or what the fuck ever made up image of me you fuckers want to hate today.
It's not idealism, weirdo. It's literally having standards for human actions.
It is fucking idealism but tell yourself whatever you want
Post another screed and melt over it some more.
Be more of a cancerous dipshit
That's it. I'm adopting you as my son now. And I'm going to cherish you because you deserve it as a human being.
Also I'm taking away your Hexbear privileges until you learn to respect other humans as equals and not opportunities for your freakish eugenics program of the self.
"people are animals with consequent biological drives"
OMG EUGENICS
literally what the fuck is wrong with you people
Get adopted, binch. I'm epicly pwning you with love right now.
To be against reproduction is antinatalist and that is not wholesome chungus and against hexbear tos, however we should mix up the babies in the maternity ward because raising a child because it’s biologically yours is wrong because it is okay, don’t think about it. Like we should put the babies on a giant spinning wheel from a game show and you take home what you get. Aren’t the many contradictions of communism so beautiful?
I think we should abolish parenthood because people shouldn't be trusted not to fuck up children just because they have the qualification of functioning genitals
BUT i recognize that literally the entire history of the evolution of sexual reproduction is about reinforcing that drive and it's fucking stupid to go "what do you mean you want YOUR OWN kid??" like of fucking course they do
Just because you accept that a parent has a right to be the caregiver of their kid doesn't mean you accept they should be allowed to do so with no oversight whatsoever
it is actually helpful to know the biological parentage of children though as it allows people to for example be informed of genetic conditions they may be susceptible to
I guess most people don't even consider adoption if they are able to have their own, I get the biological drive there or whatever. But what gets me is the people that don't want to raise someone else's kids but still get into relationships with people that have kids. I've seen too many people that couldn't afford to take care of the kids they had and didn't seem to want them but still had more just so they could have ones that were "theirs".
Absolutely. Step parents who don't want to parent a kid that isn't their own are the worst offenders in my eyes. No kid should be subjected to coldness or outright hostility from a guardian figure simply because they don't share DNA with the guardian. It's so gross.
Like both sets of my parents, two of my sisters, and a step brother are like that. At this point I'm volcel just because I think the rest of my family have done enough of all that.
I think most people think that way unless they are somehow put in a situation where a child is now in their care
Well it's funny you suggest that because I have also seen adoptees advocate against the adoption system (for straights, too).
that's very interesting what was their argument
It's been months so I don't really recall very well. I think some points were:
But if you ask me to elaborate I can't.
there are definitely criticisms there but the adoption system clearly is needed at present to solve the problem of caring for orphans
those all sound like long roads around just saying "you can't because capitalism+patriarchy".