I don't really agree with this and totally fucking love these books. However, it is a fairly interesting essay.
it is unsurprising that he defended the current Chinese regime
How tf did hexbear not immediately clock this a whiny liberal china-bashing site. It's so fucking obvious.
I think Liu is a liberal, but his bit of writing a book where the aliens are literally just white people and watching all the anglophile libs mald redeems him in my eyes. Y'all remember when kaplaya wrote "man if we go to nuclear war China shouldn't nuke the US back"? Yeah that's the sort of naivete Liu is satirizing.
There's a bit more nuance than that. Liu has said he idolizes people like Elon Musk for example. He's a conservative older Chinese guy. He also supports the party, which are beliefs that can coexist in China which cannot really coexist in a western context. And China has its share of terminally online young single men with terrible political opinions.
whiny liberal china-bashing site
not interested in three body discourse, but speaking on the site it appears to be the most obvious lib "china watcher" site lol
Show
all white (including a xinjiang genocide pusher) except for three token chinese (all of whom migrated to the west and work at western universities)
Show
I unironically like that "china watchers" and "china watching" think tanks, "china studies" departments etc exist. Critical support for mooching off western money and feeding western strategists false information and lies about China
I still think China should retaliate if its nuked by the USA, i wonder what happen to Kaplya did he left because we agreed with doing a little posadism
i wonder what happen to Kaplya did he left because we agreed with doing a little posadism
They're still here, just using a different username again. (mildly frustrating when a user that makes a lot of predictions and also informative comments I like to refer back to keeps wiping their accounts!)
I love the fact that nobody bothers to figure out what that username means lol (except for the Russian speakers), because it’d be obvious.
FYI account wiping is out of my control. How many days the account lasts is determined by a randomly generated number. My life depends on me following through that.
I love the fact that nobody bothers to figure out what that username means lol (except for the Russian speakers), because it’d be obvious.
Well in all fairness (and no offense) but I don't think most people actually care at all who used what username in the past. I'm just a nerd. But I didn't announce it here because I have no idea if you wanted your old and new names tied, I was just trying to be courteous.
How many days the account lasts is determined by a randomly generated number. My life depends on me following through that.
Now see this makes me curious.
No offense taken! I only responded because I didn’t expect there are people who “remember” that account lol.
the last i heard from the kaplya username was the biden thread, right?
oregoncom is talking about this thread: https://hexbear.net/comment/4752012
I thought the books were great, too, but I have to say that I took away basically the same thing as the author. The worldbuilding and overall narrative is really compelling and well-considered, but only if you wholly accept the extreme and highly-questionable assumptions made about both human and galactic civilization. I’m happy to suspend disbelief in order to be taken on a ride, but once the ride is over, you have to look at this stuff as pure fantasy.
The society described in the age of optimism was a caricature of what a right-wing dipshit thinks a ‘woke’ society would be like. Gender fluidity, disintegration of the nuclear family, public services, etc. It’s something that Jordan Peterson would write unironically as a prediction.
But even setting that aside, the thing that struck me was how little imagination or depth was given to the idea that society might evolve away from what we have now. One of the major plot points is that a guy buys the rights to a star, and even though the world government wants the star, it’s made explicit that property rights are too sacrosanct to force him to sell it to them. You have all this fart-sniffing about human nature and the need to survive at all costs, but the powers that be are going to get caught up about who holds the land title on a star system that no one has ever been to?
That’s just a small example, but the point is that these themes are everywhere in the book and go basically unchallenged and unexamined. That’s totally fine, because the books are explicitly about exploring those themes, but it’s really easy to find the reactionary perspective that runs through the whole thing. If you were a typical conservative/libertarian, you could easily read the books and uncritically agree with the underlying assumptions they make, and that’s something worth a bit of critical analysis.
I think this is what makes the story stick in my craw and has me unwilling to really invest in it. The "universal truths" undergirding this fictional universe strike me as fundamentally untrue, and as such the story is a phony one
I love the books but the misogyny really ramped up starting with book 2, and other comrades here have pointed out how reactionary the dark forest thing is.
If you finish it dark forest theory being reactionary is the whole point. The misogyny is wild though
a time travel machine to hold Liu at gunpoint and force him to delete the stupid fucking imaginary waifu subplot that takes up half the book and goes nowhere
The waifu stuff is also present in Ball lightning and he also approved that 3BP fanfic which is basically incelcore literature
I always imagine it was a boomer’s reaction to K-pop and K-drama that were getting popular among Chinese youth in the early 2000s lol. It’s the kind of romance plot you’d expect. It’s also likely where the whole “future human beings are feminized” trope came from.
the misogyny is wild
I think for me the misogyny is less pronounced (still problematic) than ageism and the boomerism are in his work.
Liu focus on theme/ideas before good characters, he talks about it in an interview where the characters are “unhuman” because he uses them represents concept. I think he explicitly uses (his word) Luo ji and chengxin as example. Luoji, a man, represents logic and cold and calculation and Cheng Xin, a woman, represents emotion, heart (humanism) which is super problematic itself.
In the second book, it is represented that the status quo of the dark forest which requires logic and game theory to annihilate others to survive. However, Chengxin’s humanism is portrayed as seeing the wrongness of the dark forest. I think the end of the trilogy proves her right. I think Liu tries to convey that cold and lack of humanism is ultimately the downfall of the civilization, but since he is not focus on writing good characters (i personally think he is a bad writer and never talk to women) makes it looks at the end as some gendered (and cishet normative) deterministic take that it makes my eyes roll.
As of his ageism (shown in the bunker era of 3BP being post-gendered, effeminate, weak , also in his book supernova era and also that novella about filial poety) is a belief that he unironically holds.
Tldr he is a bad writer with some ok world building, but since he is the first chinese sci-fi writer that made it to the mainstream, we have to suffer his writings.
Edit: it happens that better chinese scifi books are written by women authors like Hao Jingfang and Xia Jia
To be fair, Cheng Xin was originally written as a male character until his publisher told him that he should try writing a female protagonist for his third novel. He went back and re-wrote the character and even included the subplot with Yun Tianming’s gifting a star to Cheng Xin when the two had little interactions in the original draft.
The point being that the protagonist of book 3 would still have headed down the same route, whether it had been a man or a woman. Most of his characters are just there to represent diametrically opposite view points and to provoke the readers to contemplate further and come to their own conclusions (the most prominent in Book 3 being Wade vs Cheng Xin i.e. authoritarianism vs democracy). There is very little hand holding in the series in spite of the fact that Liu let his personal views slip through at times.
Oh wow I didn’t know about the editor asking him to do some changes to the character.
This confirms that STEMslord like Liu can’t write once again
Yeah he’s famous for treating his characters as simply tools to advance the plot (工具人).
Logic and reason are considered exclusive and incompatible with emotion by most people, and are also considered "masculine" traits and therefore highly desirable, so it wouldn't be surprising if people took away a specific message from the books that wasn't intended just because the wrong ideology was portrayed as men/male coded traits
I think this furthers a discussion on Gender roles in modern Chinese (where liu and I are from) society
yeah idk the gender roles in China, I just know of angloid hegemonic masculinity
When the Aliens put all of humanity in a reservation in Australia the population density is still lower than Gaza. Take out the sci-fi elements and sub in all humans for just Native Americans and you'll find that Three Body is actually far more optimistic than real life. The Aliens in Three Body invaded earth because they believed they had no other option, real world colonial regimes will do so for purely ideological reasons if given the opportunity.
real world colonial regimes will do so for purely ideological reasons
Actually we shouldn't forget that the prime motivator for colonialism is, in reality, simply also material conditions. Economic growth and subjugation is the true motivator for colonialism on a mass scale, these superstructural concepts used to justify would vanish quickly if there was no longer the incentive for infinite growth
You have a point. But also real world Europeans weren't colonizing under the belief that Tsunamis would inevitably drown all of Europe or something.
Yes, however, they colonized because their economies would crash which would mean toppling the economic order which helped keep those on top, on top. So for them the tendency for their economy to explode without colonial extraction could be seen as akin to a world ending disaster like the destruction of their planet or tsunamis wiping out Europe.
The aliens are basically amerikkka. Try to limit the technical development so the people you want to conquer can't fight back? Force those you conquer into shitty reservations to starve? Sounds like someone we know.
he Aliens in Three Body invaded earth because they believed they had no other option
I haven't read the books, but this seriously implies that it being "more optimistic" than real life is pretty much bullshit. Any space-faring civilization that relies on exponential growth like capitalism and colonialism does is a hilariously inefficient civilization, and without those things committing massive, costly war crimes for no reason other than "we don't trust them uwu they're scawy" is really, really silly. Dark Forest theory is weird and silly
From the Preface of the Three Body Problem when it was first serialized in the “Sci-Fi World” magazine in 2004:
作者试图讲述一部在光年尺度上重新演绎的中国现代史
I (the author) will attempt to narrate a re-interpretation of Modern Chinese History spanning the scale of light years.
Modern Chinese history = starting from the First Opium War in 1840
It really is a political and social commentary packaged with cool sci-fi concepts.
All you have to imagine is you’re a Chinese patriot in the late 19th century, right before the collapse of the Qing dynasty, helplessly watching the rapid industrialization and modernization of Imperial Japan that is just 4 light years away, an island nation with little access to raw resources needed to accommodate for the vast expansion of their industrial capacity. A military expansion into a China too weak to defend itself, and its eventual colonization by the Japanese to gain access to its rich resources, is all but a certainty.
The series is all about the anxiety of the Chinese civilization being surrounded in a sea of industrializing imperialist powers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, being caught between the imperialist power struggle between the US and the USSR during the Cold War (note: in China, it is not controversial to see the USSR as having imperialist ambitions against China. The Sino-Soviet split did happen after all).
Which route should China take to ensure its survival in this endless struggle among the imperialists? What are the deterrent options for China? Should it join the imperialist power struggle itself (as reluctant as it is), or should it lay low and present itself as non-threatening as possible to the imperialist powers? Is it really possible to reason with the imperialists? Is it really possible to co-exist peacefully with the other imperialist powers?
These are very real and dreadful questions that have pervaded the intellectual sphere of the Chinese society in the early 2000s, when the novels were first written. The tension between the US and China had never been higher, with the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia in 1999, followed by the Hainan Island incident in 2001. War was seriously about to break out between the US and China in 2001, and only to be averted when 9/11 happened and the US pivoted away from China and towards the Middle East.
If you think the tension between the US and China is getting worse today, then you have no idea how it felt in the early 2000s, when China was far weaker than it is today.
The whole series was conceived from an author who grew up with the Cold War mentality and once you have understood this perspective, you start to see why the Dark Forest theory which was born out of game theory resonates with people who have experienced the threats of being colonized and annihilated by foreign imperialist powers acting in pursuit of relentless capital expansion.
Ultimately, it is about the fear of how human civilization possessing weapons of mass destruction could end up destroying the entire planet if acted purely on rational thinking alone. It is about seeking the balance between being rational and realistic about foreign hostilities while retaining the compassion - traits that define our humanity - to survive in a capitalist world.
Yeah but I’m not talking about as a metaphor for history, when taken as a metaphor, sure, it’s understandable. I’m talking about actual Dark Forest theory as it applies to the actual universe outside of our planet. The idea of a planet reaching proper space travel while still being run by capital is almost comical, I mean we’ve SEEN Elon Musk, there’s no way this economic system is going to last long enough to actually have proper space travel, the only question for us is if we die along with it
I understand it’s an “attractive” concept to people who have been colonized by capitalist empires, but that’s basically tacitly admitting that it’s a projection of our current situation
It’s science fiction, that’s the whole point. Liu Cixin said in his interviews that many of the stuff he wrote about are unrealistic, but did so because they are necessary to make a good story and to bring out the philosophical questions he wanted to raise.
There is no way to prove if the Dark Forest hypothesis holds in reality or not, so you might as well have a little fun with it. Whether you think it’s the iron law of the universe or just a silly fantasy - it’s still our own projections based on our own interpretation of how the world should work.
Yeah I'm not criticizing the book, really. Idk I just don't like dark forest theory, if someone wants to use it in their book but is fine with it just being a fictional thing added as a flourish that's totally fine with me.
The whole series was conceived from an author who grew up with the Cold War mentality and once you have understood this perspective, you start to see why the Dark Forest theory which was born out of game theory resonates with people who have experienced the threats of being colonized and annihilated by foreign imperialist powers acting in pursuit of relentless capital expansion.
Unless the way the books articulate the theory is substantially different from how other people are articulating the theory, it isn't very good game theory. And isn't what you're saying just the Horizontal Alliance vs Vertical Alliance of the Warring States period except from the POV of the non-hegemon?
invading earth isn't the same thing as war crimes/putting people into "reservations"? you can, like, go somewhere and live there WITHOUT killing everyone who already lives there
I mean the Trisolarans saw that public opinion towards them was shifting massively positive. With Cheng Xin as the new swordholder, humanity would've been far more empowered to let all of Trisolaris immigrate into the solar system. But no, they decide to attack instead?
Honestly I feel like some ideas in the book just break down despite the good world building. I really did enjoy the series but it seems there are a million holes that are either because I missed something, or because I just didn't get it, (or the secret third option, it just has holes!).
I think the biggest hole is that over the like 400 years humanity had, the approximately 200 years from the start of the crisis era to the start of the deterrence era are where the most technological development happened, and that's despite the sophon block! The next 200 years seem to basically have 1 big invention and that's it!
I mean the Trisolarans saw that public opinion towards them was shifting massively positive. With Cheng Xin as the new swordholder, humanity would've been far more empowered to let all of Trisolaris immigrate into the solar system. But no, they decide to attack instead?
This, too, sounds similar to the early stages of colonization.
True enough I suppose, given the Australia plan I always got the impression that the Trisolarans still felt contempt towards humanity. A very colonial mindset, and very funny considering Trisolaran civilization "liberalized" after contact with Earth.
If you have finished book 3 then that’s like the whole point of the trilogy!
Book 3 spoiler
The title of Book 3 《死神永生》literally translates to “The God of Death is Immortal/Eternal”, which is the opposite meaning of the English translation “Death’s End”.
Those who collectively played by the rules of game theory only end up destroying the entire universe. Nobody wins in the end. Even those who killed other civilizations for survival, only got slightly further ahead of the others before being flattened themselves.
It was even alluded in the end that there were civilizations who never cared about playing the Dark Forest survival game, and simply enjoyed trading with other civilizations and immersing themselves with cultural development, without having to sacrifice their compassions and culture. Those were the true winners of the Dark Forest universe.
给岁月以文明，而非给文明以岁月。
From the Dark Forest.
In the official English translation, they went with “make time for civilization, for civilization won’t make time” which doesn’t quite capture the meaning.
The more accurate translation should be something like “give time for civilization (culture), don’t give up civilization (culture) for time.”
I guess I was so tuned out by the waifu subplot in book 2 that I didn't really pay attention.
Like if you have 900 pages of this reactionary belief is how the unvierse works and is the axiom the entire first book is built on, does it matter that you subvert it in the epilogue?
Read my long comment here.
The books have a lot of flaws but the themes they explored resonated with the Chinese audience (it was never written for an international audience in mind, in fact Liu didn’t even expect it would gain such popularity in overseas market).
Luo Ji was inspired by astrophysicist Ye Wenjie, protagonist of the first book, who told him two ‘self-evident’ axioms: 1) ‘Survival is the primary need of all civilisations’; and 2) ‘Civilisations continuously grow and expand, but the total matter in the universe remains constant’ (Liu 2016). On this basis, Luo develops the idea of the ‘chain of suspicion’ (猜疑链) and the infamous ‘dark forest’ theory (黑暗森林). According to the former, one civilisation (A) cannot determine whether another (B) is benevolent or malicious. Furthermore, A cannot determine whether B thinks A is benevolent or malicious. A cannot determine whether B thinks A thinks B is benevolent or malicious—and the ‘chain of suspicion’ goes on. Given this ultimate uncertainty and the spatiotemporal scale of the universe—which, according to Luo Ji, means that the difference in capabilities between civilisations is likely to be enormous and unpredictable—the ‘dark forest’ theory posits that every civilisation is like a hunter with a gun stalking in a dark forest. They must hide themselves and strike at the first sign of other life.
This completely falls apart since they are more than two civilizations. To use the dark forest analogy, it would be like if you mag-dump the first sign of life, which turned out to be some random deer, only for a tiger that was previously stalking the deer to pounce on you instead. This almost feels like a Daoist or Buddhist fable. Some hunter is disappointed he missed the deer after shooting his bow only to see a tiger that was right next to him pounce and kill the deer, the implication being that if the hunter had killed the deer the tiger would've pounced and killed the hunter as the hunter picked up his quarry.
I haven't read the books, so maybe that's what the "three" in "three-body problem" is referencing. The dark forest analogy only makes sense if they're exactly two bodies and falls apart as soon as you introduce a third. Like, isn't this what more or less happened to the Sasanians and the Byzantines? They warred with each other only to get completely blindsided by the Rashidun Caliphate.
I haven't read the books, so maybe that's what the "three" in "three-body problem" is referencing.
nah the aliens that are invading earth are from a fictionalized version of alpha centauri which is a 3 star system. It's fictionalized in the sense that the orbits are much closer and more chaotic than they actually are. The chaotic orbits are a major motivation and plot point in the first book.
I haven't read the books
You most certainly have not. I mean I appreciate you taking the time to type this up but to be frank it is total nonsense.
In response to your first point for example, it is certainly possible to strike without revealing your position.
In response to your first point for example, it is certainly possible to strike without revealing your position.
Are you talking about the technology within the book's settings or are you talking about a general principle?
My broader point is that blowing your load on the first civilization you encounter with no followup plan for the second, third, fourth, fifth civilization you encounter makes no sense. If we're talking about real life, PRC isn't going to empty its entire nuclear arsenal on the US because there's also Russia, the DPRK, India, Pakistan, Israel, the UK, and France who all have nukes as well as countries who can quickly procure nukes like Iran. Moving back to the dark forest metaphor, it makes no sense to just have a rule to always kill or always hide from any living thing.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that what you should do if you're stuck in some dark forest is also the most boring and uninteresting answer: you should studiously observe what's in front of you, give a threat assessment, and make your move based on past experiences that are similar to what you're facing right now. This is neither faux-realpolitiks "kill anything that moves" nor some naivete about how aliens of a sufficient tech level are communists who come in peace.
The most reasonable answer is also the most boring and most obvious answer.
dark forest theory is kind of more nonsense than what they wrote though.
I'm just paying attention to it for the popular discourse, to be honest. Watching everybody lose their shit over the boat getting the Resident Evil (film) treatment is great, because I can't wait until they get to watch
Babe! It's 2400, time for your flattening!
Yes honey.
