If it helps it's a means to an end, as opposed to being just for aesthetics. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone means by means to an end, not that it's the single most important thing but that it does serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah I guess I just don't know the definition or whatevs. Like no I don't think legalizing weed is a means to an end but yeah I'ma vote for it. I most definitely don't think Joe Biden is a means to an end in any case tho. these last four years have radicalized so many people and I don't believe a liberal will do the same.
Electing progressive DAs and attorney general's has a tremendous impact on both the lives of people going through the system as well as the ability to go after corrupt business folks who are fucking over the working class.
Electing left wing mayor's and governor's can also be meaningful as a lot of these folks have unilateral control over an obscene amount of stuff.
This said, campaigning for a single legislative seats is a total waste of time unless the campaign is more about knocking out a committee chairman or something else along those lines.
Sure there is, if you get a decent candidate or you get a good issue (e.g., marijuana legalization) on the ballot. We shouldn't mistake shitty choices in many elections for elections doing absolutely, positively nothing 100% of the time.
Means to an end to me means instilling communism or socialism but to these libs I imagine it just means getting rid of conservatives which voting does not do. At least it hasn't historically in america.
Means to an end to me means instilling communism or socialism
There are plenty of intermediate goals -- that would in some way move towards this -- that can be accomplished through elections. For example, any socialist or communist project would handle crime in a way that isn't horrifically racist and unjust. Legalizing pot would move us substantially closer to that end goal, as would electing local DAs who aren't just trying to railroad as many poor people and people of color as they can.
More broadly, the best way to convince people that a better world is possible is to start making the world better, the best way to get people to join your organization is to show that your organization can accomplish something real, and if you can do nothing else even just talking about better ideas in political spaces forces those ideas to be taken seriously.
I disagree. I live in a state that legalized marijuana, massively increased our healthcare coverage (now it covers like 30% of the state for free) and raised the wages of our teachers greatly all within the year yet we are probably top five for most vehemently anti-communist.
Not to sound accellerationist but my awakening came in spite of my conditions which have been pretty piss poor my entire life. If you give libs an inch they fall asleep for four years and let fash run rampant. Something needs to happen outside of the voting booth to change this.
This is a horribly defeatist outlook given that voting doesn't really take that long if you vote early (I have more skeptical opinion on electoral organizing though).
This said, if you can win a majority in a legislative body or win an executive office (mayor of a major city, governor or president) that lends their ear to on the ground activists a lot of good can be achieved.
I can think of a lot of huge wins that have happened, things that very much so materially improve the lives of the working poor and otherwise marginalized (as opposed to whatever these folks are saying about Biden). Things like rent control and other substantial affordable housing measures, defunding the police, universal Pre-K and free college, significant raises to the minimum wage and so on.
I'm not saying you shouldn't vote i am just saying it's not a means to an end (communism or whatever you believe in in particular.) There's way more that needs to be done outside of the voting booth. I vote locally whenever I can and it's definitely materially benefitted me but I acknowledge it's gonna get the left almost nowhere
Yeah the purpose of voting is entirely about advancing social democracy and in no way is going to end capitalism at large. I definitely think there are some things that can advance the socialist cause that can be achieved through electoralism (public funding of elections is a big one if socialists can get that funding, alongside socialist elected officials being able to hire a full time staff that can further advance the socialist program.
Voting can do good things; voting for a senile conservative because he's not Trump won't.
There's no means to an end by voting in America at the very least.
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Maybe I just don't know what means to an end means but I don't think even local elections are gonna instill socialism lol
Definitely not by themselves, but revolution requires many mechanisms.
I'm not saying not to vote I'm just saying it ain't a means to an end
If it helps it's a means to an end, as opposed to being just for aesthetics. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone means by means to an end, not that it's the single most important thing but that it does serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah I guess I just don't know the definition or whatevs. Like no I don't think legalizing weed is a means to an end but yeah I'ma vote for it. I most definitely don't think Joe Biden is a means to an end in any case tho. these last four years have radicalized so many people and I don't believe a liberal will do the same.
Forsure
Electing progressive DAs and attorney general's has a tremendous impact on both the lives of people going through the system as well as the ability to go after corrupt business folks who are fucking over the working class.
Electing left wing mayor's and governor's can also be meaningful as a lot of these folks have unilateral control over an obscene amount of stuff.
This said, campaigning for a single legislative seats is a total waste of time unless the campaign is more about knocking out a committee chairman or something else along those lines.
Sure there is, if you get a decent candidate or you get a good issue (e.g., marijuana legalization) on the ballot. We shouldn't mistake shitty choices in many elections for elections doing absolutely, positively nothing 100% of the time.
Those aren't means to an end tho dawg
How are they not? Ballot initiatives in particular directly impact whatever issue you're working on.
Means to an end to me means instilling communism or socialism but to these libs I imagine it just means getting rid of conservatives which voting does not do. At least it hasn't historically in america.
There are plenty of intermediate goals -- that would in some way move towards this -- that can be accomplished through elections. For example, any socialist or communist project would handle crime in a way that isn't horrifically racist and unjust. Legalizing pot would move us substantially closer to that end goal, as would electing local DAs who aren't just trying to railroad as many poor people and people of color as they can.
More broadly, the best way to convince people that a better world is possible is to start making the world better, the best way to get people to join your organization is to show that your organization can accomplish something real, and if you can do nothing else even just talking about better ideas in political spaces forces those ideas to be taken seriously.
I disagree. I live in a state that legalized marijuana, massively increased our healthcare coverage (now it covers like 30% of the state for free) and raised the wages of our teachers greatly all within the year yet we are probably top five for most vehemently anti-communist.
Not to sound accellerationist but my awakening came in spite of my conditions which have been pretty piss poor my entire life. If you give libs an inch they fall asleep for four years and let fash run rampant. Something needs to happen outside of the voting booth to change this.
This is a horribly defeatist outlook given that voting doesn't really take that long if you vote early (I have more skeptical opinion on electoral organizing though).
This said, if you can win a majority in a legislative body or win an executive office (mayor of a major city, governor or president) that lends their ear to on the ground activists a lot of good can be achieved.
I can think of a lot of huge wins that have happened, things that very much so materially improve the lives of the working poor and otherwise marginalized (as opposed to whatever these folks are saying about Biden). Things like rent control and other substantial affordable housing measures, defunding the police, universal Pre-K and free college, significant raises to the minimum wage and so on.
I'm not saying you shouldn't vote i am just saying it's not a means to an end (communism or whatever you believe in in particular.) There's way more that needs to be done outside of the voting booth. I vote locally whenever I can and it's definitely materially benefitted me but I acknowledge it's gonna get the left almost nowhere
Yeah the purpose of voting is entirely about advancing social democracy and in no way is going to end capitalism at large. I definitely think there are some things that can advance the socialist cause that can be achieved through electoralism (public funding of elections is a big one if socialists can get that funding, alongside socialist elected officials being able to hire a full time staff that can further advance the socialist program.