Realized the other day that I've been subjected to years and years of propaganda about Russia and Putin. Even correcting for it a bit in my head, it still doesn't seem like an amazing place to live. But is it better or worse for the average Joe?
My impression is that its 2nd world. Lots of modern technology, but shitty and like 20 years behind. Not progressive in terms of LGBT or women's rights. Definitely not a democracy and basically run by plutocrats.
Anyone have personal experience there?
Realized the other day that I’ve been subjected to years and years of propaganda about Russia
Yup. While you are at it, make sure to read up on China, Cuba, Vietnam & DPRK. Misinformation about those countries is as strong as ever.
Back to your question. How bad is Russia? That depends on how you define “bad” in this context. Russia is a liberal, capitalist state, with large social programs and safety nets. It is a presidential republic with your standard western representative democracy in place. Are any of those bad? From a western (neocon) standpoint there is nothing “bad” about it. All capitalist values and systems are working as intended within the country. There is the first main point about Russia that many people have a hard time understanding - Russia isn’t some cold dark place run by KGB-FSB agents. In my experience, life in Russia hardly differs from any other western nations (shocker i know, and my statement can be considered controversial).
Putin
As much as I wish he was a secret undercover marxist, he is not. An argument can be made that he is a tool for the wealthy, but for normal citizens, he is a symbol and a guarantee of stability (when compared to the 90s, which was a complete shitshow). An important note to make on Putin is that he is almost entirely focused on inner politics. Russia’s involvement in world politics is highly overstated by the media.
Lots of modern technology, but shitty and like 20 years behind
What does that even mean lol? That’s a contradiction my man. Having retained and modernised soviet industry, and with investments from western international capital, the Russian economy produces nearly every possible item. Russia is severely behind on microelectronics. But, on the other hand, she has a strong IT industry with a homegrown search engine yandex (massive multibillion dollar corporation), social media (vk/odnoklassniki) etc etc. “20 years behind” is a generalising term which can severely impede any discussion about development.
Not progressive in terms of LGBT or women’s rights.
LGBT rights activists exist and are numerous in Russia, but sadly, conservative values are still present. The only law that is anti-lgbt is the notorious “Anti LGBT propaganda to children” law restricting activism. Women’s rights is a separate issue, as women were given equal rights after the revolution. However, how is it in reality? Depends. My mother says she was never restricted in any way, given maternal leave and so on. Russia gives out huge child subsidies to families. Currently it is something like 450 000 rubles (with an average wage of 45 000). Russia is a large, multi-ethnic country. Rights of women are likely far worse in Dagestan due to traditions and religion
Definitely not a democracy and basically run by plutocrats
Run by business. How is that different from say, the US / Europe?
Anyhow sorry for lots of text. There is more to add but so little time. If I had to summarise: Life in Russia is extremely similar to that of the west, as in your standard capitalist country. The only difference, is wages are lower due to material conditions (only when counted in a dollar equivalent). Make sure to visit and see for yourself. It will be an eye opening experience.
Source: Am ethnically Russian, visited in 2011, 2016, 2018 and have family there.
LGBT rights activists exist and are numerous in Russia, but sadly, conservative values are still present.
"still present" undersells it a bit. It's more like "they're utterly and violently dominant."
Very true. Horrible understatement on my part What's worse is that right now, there is a growing connection between business and church and state. Churches instil traditional values -> Business and State builds more -> cycle continues. In reality, the church is just another landlord/ capitalist. They own a bunch of factories farms etc. What's missing is the peasantry.
Run by business. How is that different from say, the US / Europe?
People get up in arms about the russian polonium killings, but assassinations of a judge's family or frivolous arrest of activist lawyers/journalists in america are not spun in the media the same way.
Marriage specifically is less of a big deal in Russia than it is in the West in general, IMO. Civil marriages (no official registration) have been common since Soviet times.
Respect for gay rights is what's severely lacking. It's changing for younger people, but for older people it's like asking you to accept NAMBLA. Outside the insular world of theater/arts, you'd only hear of homosexuality as a thing in dirty jokes or prisons, and anything to do with prisons is highly stigmatized. People are just super ignorant. And it also gets lumped in with everything else new and foreign and poisonous coming in after the fall of the Iron Curtain - drugs, pornography, prostitution, bad TV, incivility.
Thanks for type this out. Very interesting. Yeah, modern but 20 years old doesn't make sense. Maybe more like 5 years back? My old boss would always buy a new phone and then bring back his family his used one, because it was still better than what they had (according to him, also this was Ukraine, so not the same thing, but tells you what I'm working with, knowledge wise).
Edit. So many typos. Fuck it
Awesome that you liked it!
My old boss would always buy a new phone and then bring back his family his used one
Ahha I use a 2015 phone as well... and I live in Australia. Now seriously, consumerism is on the rise in Russia. Every year, thousands line up in lines for the release of a new Iphone. Can everyone get one? sure. But its expensive. Any product is available for money in Russia. The problem is that money is concentrated in the rich cities (just how capitalism works) I cant speak for Ukraine, but I am aware they are far behind in certain areas. Unlike Russia, IMO ukraine is nearly fully de-industrialised. Their main export is Labor and Sunflower seeds. My family left the Donbass after the war began and settled in Moscow. They say that sadly Ukraine is extremely poor. Thinking about it makes me want to cry, tbh.
I visited once a few years ago. Was kind of worried because of how the place is portrayed by western media. Turned out that I didn't need to be worried at all.
I was told to expect gangs of skinheads but instead found many friendly locals who went out of their way to help some very obviously not-white tourists.
Also, in 3 weeks I saw a total of 1 drunk person wandering the streets at night. He was so excited to meet me that he literally offered me the beer in his hand.
Not an expert, but I can give you a general feeling about the place. So there is a lot of USSR nostalgia. Many of the old folks say it was better then, I don't know how empirically true this is, but this feeling is almost unanimous. I heavily suspect they are right. It really depends what part of Russia you're talking about.
Thousands of small towns in Russia and ex-USSR countries have been more or less abandoned because government investment is no longer present, and industry died, production has fallen, and all the young people have moved into the cities for work. There's also just a lot of empty buildings because so many people left Russia or died, these (apparently) aren't reported. Putin administration has apparantly lied about their census, over inflating the population by potentially 10s of millions (someone told me it was nearly 60 mil, no idea if this is correct.).
Current Russian gov really does not give a shit about their people outside of major cities, they sell and pollute a lot of land and make places completely uninhabitable from deforestation leading to mud slides on mountains to just pumping the ground full of cyanide from chemical plants. This again mostly affects populations outside of major cities.
However in many cities its not too different from anywhere else in Europe except culturally and people in general live well. Russian education is OK, but if you have money you go Switzerland/UK. Russian healthcare is free, but basically chronically underfunded since USSR, you don't get 5* service, but they will do a decent job of keeping you alive as Dr.s/nurses are well trained.
Culturally they're incredibly loving people. If you visit rural places and they see someone new in town they will have alcohol and food ready and they will want to make you feel welcome. This is common in much of East/central Europe. However they still have quite Conservative mindset, for example gender and sexuality (this is changing a lot with Gen some Gen x and Gen z). My friends (latter gen x early gen z) found it quite a shock to leave that culture into Western European culture. Gay people are largely ostracised and f*ggot is a common insult, that kind of stuff.
Most of my info is from friends that are Russian or from former USSR nations, are middle class or kids of 'politicians/businessman' (which equate to the same thing at a certain level) so interpret what you will from this info.
Politically, Putin is the instrument of the wealthy. He apparently doesn't have a cell phone or use the Internet which makes him one of the most uninformed leaders in the world. Informed by those who regulate his actions. He offers Russians stability and peace of mind in exchange for money and power. This trade off is begrudgingly accepted as fair, considering things could be much worse. There are about 200 billionaires that operate Russian political and business interests internally and externally - this is the real Russian governance. Many live in London, but also strategic points for business like Cyprus, Belfast and NYC, etc.
Edit: these business people that are no longer politicians in Russia still actively operate for Russian interests outside of Russia. You don't really leave.. Until you officially retire
Apparently Russian GDP per capita collapsed intensely after the Soviet Union collapsed, and only got to the 1990 level in the last couple years, but today that skews way more toward rich assholes at the top.
True, but isn't that applicable almost globally now? Like the local economies of hinterlands in the US and UK got destroyed, but GDP trudged through as it passed around the wealthy.
Yeah for sure- pointing out why the old folks are probably right about the 70's and 80's.
Nah, that's an exaggeration. It's true for Ukraine and Georgia, but Russia surpassed the 1990 level by 2007 and didn't even fall below it during the 2008 crisis. (Ukraine's a true kleptocracy whose leaders destroyed their own industry, and Georgia had like 3 civil wars and went from privileged Soviet republic to a poor country up in the mountains.) Russia's economy is not breaking any records, but it's trucking along fine despite sanctions.
Ah i guess i looked at a bad graph
EDIT:
That's correct but when I look at this chart, it seems like after 2007 it didn't grow much, and when you consider inequality I'm sure there are a lot of people who are worse off now:
Edit: removed link
The chart you link is exactly the same as the one I link, but with less detail because the axis starts at 0 and you can't hover over the individual figures. Since 2007 there was the world recession and then the sanctions recession after 2014, so yeah, a lot less growth than between 1998 and 2008, but still growth. Inequality hasn't changed significantly in the same time period. People feel stagnation relative to the 2000s, but not things getting worse or feeling like the 90s again.
Ah sorry I missed your link. But yes, what I'm comparing is the 80's to now, not the 90's - it surpassed the 80's in 2007 and then has been flat- and it's not that far above the 80's.
So if there's a worse distribution now than there was in the 80's, then there could be a lot of people worse off. We'd have to look at more detailed data though I suppose.
Oh, comparing how well off people were in the 80s vs. today is an interesting question, one that GDP per capita doesn't really capture. People have better electronics/appliances/furniture/windows, but access to public services is worse - essentially you have to pay for better education and healthcare, even within the public system, and there's no job guarantee. Pensions are tiny. There're also things like more crime, more racism, more threat of war/terrorism.
Everyone used to feel secure about securing the basic necessities of life. Now everyone's nervous about it.
Interesting. yeah, sounds about what I thought. A lot of that is pretty applicable to the US, and really probably the rest of the world; money dividing the world into the haves and have nots, with the political system mostly being for show
Yes, wealth is a thick dividing line. I would say its like America, with a smaller middle class, more organised/authoritarian recruitment of politicians and probably slightly more loose human/worker rights.
But it certainly isn't the worst place to be, and you can find good work in the cities.
As far as I know votes aren't even counted in elections. I dont know a Russian who doesn't know or suspect this.
votes aren’t even counted in elections. I dont know a Russian who doesn’t know or suspect this.
Yeah I was that Russian. Votes aren't counted/lied about etc. is a common saying. My problem with this claim is that it is a liberal talking point usually brought up by the neoliberal opposition. (Source: Was a liberal who watched Alexei Navalny's videos when I was younger lemao)
In reality, any Russian citizen can oversee the counting of the votes in person and voting centers are recorded and streamed online. Does it work? who knows. Liberal elections be like that
(someone told me it was nearly 60 mil, no idea if this is correct.)
Well the current claimed population of Russia is 140ish million, so inflating the census figures by almost 40% is... Incredibly outlandish.
Yeah, that's BS. I know my home city's population has dropped somewhat since the fall of the USSR, but not by anything radical. What the authorities did was annex some suburbs/villages into the city so that its official population can still look big, they didn't invent millions of people.
There was also a leak of the local census, so you could buy a CD with every person's name and address, and the figures there matched the official ones IIRC. So there's that sort of government transparency.
Potentially what happened was people migrated more freely during USSR, and many into Russia. Following its collapse I expect many migrated back to their nation states.
As for the actual figure I'm not in a position to back any number up. I could have just misheard.
There's more immigration into Russia than emigration out of. Better-off Russians move to Europe/US, but everyone from poorer ex-Soviet republics, especially ethnic Slavs, but not just, move to Russia because they already speak the language and know the culture and it's closer.
Mortality went through the roof in the 90s as people's lives collapsed, birth rates also fell as people aren't excited to bring up children in poverty. The situation has stabilized since, but just barely. That's the biggest impact on population figures, not immigration.
Some good, some bad. Definitely not as terrifying as American media makes it out to be lol. I was at a summer institute thing in St Petersburg a couple years ago, which is done in partnership between a St Petersburg and a New York uni, and the Russians were extremely enthusiastic and open while the Americans were weirdly scared about being in Russia lol. (Side-note, the summer institute is extremely fun, highly recommend it as a way to experience meeting Russian people, living in Russian dorms and getting bitched at by Russian dorm managers lol. The focus is split between theoretical + cognitive linguistics and a variety of cultural studies.)
Apart from that, depends on where you are. St Petersburg is lovely, like any western European city. Except instead of kebab take-aways there's Russian pancake take-aways and they're amazing. Otoh my grandparents lived in Kursk, and that place is pretty grim. Feels like the brightest young people move to Moscow and St Petersburg, and what's left is depressing. The bureaucracy is teeth-grindingly annoying. Old people's brains are completely rotted - on the way to my grandma's funeral her neighbours kept pestering me about "whether westerners really think such bad things about Putin". I suppose that's no different from Americans.
From what I know re women's rights - women have been encouraged to work since the revolution. It's just that when they go home they're expected to do housework like in pre-revolution times.
its always great to realize that your conception of a country is based 99% on american propaganda lol.
ive met gay men who have lived/visited there, and they say the big cities like moscow are really not homophobic but its the rural areas that are dangerous for gay men. but like how is that any diff than america?
Yeah, sounds very like america. The whole "more in common with worker in X country, than the rulers of your own" or however it goes
Thanks for sharing! Any American stereotypes that ring true/comically wrong? Stuff like /r/normaldayinrussia, Russians are the scariest white people, chugging vodka like water?
i lived in volgograd for a summer and got a masters degree in russian studies. i found it depressing. the food was quite bad, the people are nice, but odd, and i felt everything was overcommercialized, which is strange to say, coming from the us. i went to a karaoke night with some friends and felt like a celebrity since it was mostly english songs. some drunk guy pulled me aside and said if i ever need a podiatrist to give him a call lol.
my impression is that a lot of the men i knew were overly macho and annoying and a lot of the women were very superficial. of course, the country isn't a monolith. I visited SPB and Moscow and had very different impressions than volgograd, but i didn't spend enough time in either place to feel authoritative. A friend from my program lived in Siberia for an extended period of time (like a year or two from what I remember) and he apparently had a blast. The Far East has the same kind of mentality as the American West, people are much more individualistic and anti-government / authority, for better or worse. I still want to travel across the Transiberian Railroad one day, but idk, i think it would get tedious pretty fast
I'd sum it up as very similar to the West in social structure, but appreciably different in mindset.
It's the same capitalism, just significantly less rich. There're more obstacles to political expression, someone like Cori Bush can't get elected, there's less of an outlet for discontent in public life. But most power is in the hands of the rich and connected, just like in the West. Institutions are not as developed or advanced.
The mindsets are different because culture and education are different. It's hard to summarize/generalize. The culture is more conformist in terms of basic values and behaviors - I'd say conflicts can be more heated because someone breaking the rules of regular respectful conduct is so abnormal as to warrant an immediate correction. The average person is probably more self-reliant, skilled/educated, well-read, more skeptical, but also more ignorant of the modern world, more detached. There's lots that's worse than in the West, lots that's better.
