As a transwoman, I understand that feeling of acceptedness within the Chapo community and I can imagine the feeling of betrayal that they must be feeling. I joined about a year ago at one of the lowest and most pivotal points of my life and the community has helped me to grow as a person and to really turn my life around for the better. I'm personally trying my best to provide the same safe and protecting community for trans and non-binary people here that I saw in the subreddit that allowed me to blossom so heavily. However, a blank slate means you let go of the things that happened in the past and we all move forward on this new platform, where I have taken steps to ensure that trans people are more protected so situations like this do not arise. Spamming the Lemmy does not constitute a move forward.
Marie stated in one comment that, "I was, unfortunately, misgendered by someone on the discord (and had been multiple times by that point) and so I expressed my feelings that not enough was being done to protect trans comrades." If they looked at the trans and non-binary dedicated community, they would see several points where I have provided updates on the site-wide pronoun tags (entirely separate from community flair, I might add) that are coming down the pipeline of updates, which I strongly pushed for and had the pleasure of discussing and brainstorming with the developers to make a reality. I personally didn't think the Discord had the capability to fully prevent misgendering because it would require someone to click on another person's profile and self-investigate? So how could that be improved moving away from the Discord? On the Lemmy, pronouns will be immediately next to your name site-wide leaving no excuse for misgendering going forward.
Someone else stated that "it’s kind of depressing that lgbt spaces here are empty" and "it raises the issue of what the priority is in affirmatively making sure there is a space here in chapo for our queer comrades to have a home, vs being a home for cis comrades to affirm their own perceived tolerance." It's hard to pull people to Lemmy when there is no guarantee I can prevent things like misgendering otherwise I personally would be trying to pull all of my trans and non-binary comrades here. It's actually one of my biggest concerns and I have addressed this concern in our space. I'm hesitant to really do anything in the trans and non-binary community until I can guarantee that no one will face dysphoria on that front.
I have discussed at-length with other moderators that I (and I can't stress this enough) DO NOT want cis people on my moderator board, as our people do not need cis people dictating the manner in which we can converse with each other about our trials and tribulations. Marie stated they want "reform" and for the "mod team to not be shit"? Here I fucking am. They want mods to be "held accountable for their actions"? I will absolutely swing for the fences for our people. "Will this ever happen?" they asked. Yes.
UPDATE:
I have tried everything possible to make amends. Yesterday on the statement I made allowing for any good faith grievances to be discussed, I received countless comments telling me to “talk to the Shorks”. Getting specific names of people in the Shork server was no easy feat, but I did it. I ended up reaching out to Shorkena, one of the moderators on the Shork server that Marie was kind enough to put me in contact with, and tried to pull together a group chat to have a good faith conversation about how to move forward. I tried everything to reach some sort of agreement. They’ve been spamming demanding that their voices and grievances be heard since we opened the Lemmy and I have gaven them multiple spaces space to freely do that and openly discuss grievances and how to move forward in good faith and they shuttered.
I gave them every opportunity I could possibly think to give and they squandered it and even went as far as mocking me within their own server and digging up drunken shitpost Tweets to openly mock me about instead of discussing their actual grievances with me, which you can see in the Imgur directory below.
I remained hopeful throughout all of this that I could pull something off and end all of this, but I have concluded there is no good faith attempt here anymore.
For all of those interested, here is every interaction I’ve had with any of them involved: https://imgur.com/a/rfN6joQ
REMOVED IMGUR ALBUM SO THOSE INVOLVED WILL NOT BE DOXXED.
TLDR: Discord bad. Blank slate on Lemmy good. Leaving behind Discord bullshit biggggg good. Trans people feeling safe and welcome here like I'm working hard to do HUGE GOOOOOOOOD.
Oh why thank you
Mods/Admins have stated that "clean slate on lemmy" is out the window apparently? I don't really feel safe in a place where it feels like people get banned for just disagreeing :(
The clean slate on Lemmy is for those people who don't act in bad faith, brigade, and spam with others.
Marie has been involved in that since the initial dev instance prior to us going live, and then subsequently in several other brigades since then. Other users here who have been banned from discord have been allowed to create accounts here and post under the clean slate; the difference being that they have not acted as spammers, brigaders, and other wreckers have.
I feel like that's been code for just ignoring the legitimate grievances raised. Telling the trans community to just get over it isn't going to make them feel comfortable returning to the greater chapo community.
Let's take a look at those two statements that you in particular made. 1)"it’s kind of depressing that lgbt spaces here are empty" 2) "it raises the issue of what the priority is in affirmatively making sure there is a space here in chapo for our queer comrades to have a home, vs being a home for cis comrades to affirm their own perceived tolerance."
I came in as a mod AFTER all of this blew up. I'm not saying to get over it. I'm saying that instead of making blanket statements that they're empty or not a priority, you could ask what could be done to help with the endeavors that I've been working my ass off to think of and plan out so trans and non-binary people in particular can feel safe, welcome, and comfortable here. I personally did not like the Discord and I've analyzed functions and flaws of the Discord that opened up my people to transphobia and mistreatment and tried to improve upon them here. I'm open to hearing out grievances so I can more properly and efficiently make adjustments as a community leader so that my people feel more welcome here. If there are grievances that I haven't addressed in this thicc statement, by all means, post them in the transenby_liberation community that is ran by trans/enby people and for trans/enby people.
Admins know what the grievances are. They can reach out to the greater trans community.
Can you stop speaking like you represent all trans people please? You don't. There are a lot of us here that don't agree with you. This splinter group looks like it's what? 10 people at most?
100+ trans comrades. and there seemed to be a positive response to my thread so at least a proportion of people agree with me.
X to doubt. The spam I've seen in new isn't anywhere remotely close to that lol, nor is the participation in any discussion on the topic.
Ok. explain why the trans channel was active on the server. but it's a ghost town now.
Because discord as a platform centres each channel around a core usergroup of 10-15 active users.
and where did they go?
Wherever you went. But as I said above, it's a group of 10 or so and doesn't represent "all trans people" here whatsoever. I also saw the attempts to get MLs riled up in the Tankie Bunker discord with claims that MLs were being unduly targeted and that was nonsense too. Bad faith oozes off of this when you make rediculously hyped up claims of hundreds of people being involved instead of the very grounded reality of it being a single core group of 10 or so.
i didn't say hundreds. I said 100+ which is an accurate appraisal, and doesn't even count the passively disaffected. If I was lying yall should have a thriving trans community here.
Hey. You claimed I was ignoring you and now that I'm requesting a link it looks like you've ran away? Can I please just get a link?
dm'd you
Hey, PM me a link so I can discuss grievances with the Shorks.
dm'd you
That may be true, but I don't care what cis mods think, if I can be so frank. As a transwoman coming into moderating in the middle of all of this, the only thing I give a single fuck about is giving my people a home free from cis bullshit run by and for us. If you have additional grievances, post them in the transenby_liberation community.
I already posted my concerns and the thread got locked. Why should I have any confidence the community will be heard out in good faith when no actions have been taken to indicate that they will be. The issues are well known at this point. It's not an issue of stating them. it's an issue of them yet being addressed.
deleted by creator
if the trans mod of a trans community was wrong about their grievances - it's happened in the past - he should criticize it? it's ridiculous to say every grievance held by every trans person is correct, people are wrong a lot- i can remember many reddit dramas where multiple trans mods were expressing their grievances and they contradicted each other, leading to endless drama
Ok. Yelling at me that I'm not going by the right procedure or whatever isn't going to make the trans community automatically feel comfortable here again. And it's not my responsibility. And the Administration hiding is trans-exclusionary structure behind trans mods that are willing to ignore it doesn't really do anything positive either
Hey, I’m still waiting for a link.
what did they say?
Removed by mod
dm'd you
The thread was locked during a time when I was at work and unavailable. As I previously stated, I literally do not give a single bother what cis mods think. I am here now and I am very available to listen to grievances. I have no preconceived notions of what modding looks like as I've never moderated a Reddit, Discord, or Lemmy until now. I'm just someone with a vision of a healthy, safe community for my people. If you have legitimate grievances that I haven't addressed or suggestions on improvements to the community I'm working to build for my people, please tell me them now. Make your grievance known to me in particular and I will try work to improve upon them.
If you really want to make a difference I'm sure the people from the shork server would be willing to talk it out with you. Like they were willing to talk with briggs about it until they decided to ignore any offers the shork server made to have that conversation. Otherwise you're just playing cover for the cis mods that don't care.
Okay. As I've previously stated, I really hated the Discord and it failed my people on multiple levels. And I wasn't a huge fan of the Shork server either. Discord is not my forte. I don't give a single bother about what Briggs thinks either, to be frank. I refuse to play telephone with people's grievances. I don't want to hear about people's grievances through cis moderators either. Again, I don't care what they think. I'm here right here and right now, please make your grievances known to me directly so I can address them and make improvements.
I don't represent the whole trans chapo community. Talk to the shorks
If you feel like you're a representative of the Shork community, tell them to come here and talk to me. Again, Discord is not my forte, nor am I a moderator there. But I am a moderator here where I am trying to make improvements upon the failures my people experienced on the Discord. Pass it on.
They tried comming here and the thread was locked.
Ok, really. What are you trying to accomplish here? what more can we do? I'm one of the dev's. I'm trans. I personally made sure to advocate for the removal of every moderator and admin who abused their power or said hurtful and or inappropriate things. and they were. The mod team for the trans spaces is exclusively trans no, there is no hold over. I'm helping build features explicitly to protect my people.
So serious question: what grievances are left that haven't been addressed? we arn't being pedantic when we ask this. we legitimently don't know how else to help. we want to help. :purple heart:
Well if want to name a big thing. People that do name their grievences keep getting deleted and banned so we can't even start until that's fixed.
If you have any communication with them, please tell them to voice their grievances in this thread specifically where I am open and available to discussion.
you can come to them
As I’ve previously stated, I really hated the Discord and it failed my people on multiple levels. And I wasn’t a huge fan of the Shork server either. Discord is not my forte. If you have any communication with them, please tell them to voice their grievances in this thread specifically where I am open and available to discussion.
discord didn't fail. the admin team did.
you can reach out to them if you actually try
Let the record show that I am not a moderator on Discord. My job is to make Lemmy a welcoming environment. People can make their grievances known in this thread specifically. Good faith arguments will not be banned or removed. I am open and available to discussion. Direct them here if you feel you are a representative of that community.
You don't need to be a discord admin to reach out. If you really cared you could do that bare minimum, atleast.
Earlier you said "it's not my responsibility" to talk to this mod who is trans and working hard to make things better about how to do that
Now you're saying it's this mods responsibility to go on Discord, which she mentioned repeatedly she doesn't use because it often induces dysphoria, and if she doesn't it means she doesn't really care about building a good space for trans and nonbinary people*
Hopefully you see that on a person to person level that's pretty mean.
It seems like you're saying you and your group are happy to stay on the discord and don't really care either way about being on Lemmy. I'm not sure if that's accurate but it's my impression.
you're right. we're all mean cunts and we'll stay on discord. sorry for thinking yall wanted our participation, I'll fuck back off.
You paraphrasing my post (which specifically only described your words/actions as mean) into a general insult with a really harsh and harmful gendered word is just another example of so much bad faith engagement.
I can't even remember the last time I've seen the word cunt outside of like 4chan
you're right. I'm fucking off from whence I came. I'm tired of this shit.
jesus christ...
oh wait nvm
I'm just trying to figure out whats going on and everyone is really angry. do you like house music or shoegaze?
What’s shoegaze
It's kinda like house. I made a post thing: https://hexbear.net/post/3494
oh house is cool. I love like cheesy old house music.
Me too! https://hexbear.net/post/3191
edit: linked song is pure cheese
is that house? sounds more like harddance or something
okay that's a good point. I'm going to need to post actual house now.
John Kerry
Again, I wasn't all that involved with the Discord during the eruption of all of this. I'm here on my own grounds trying to build something from the ashes. They are more than welcome to come to me with their grievances.
That doesn't stop you from reaching out to them instead of urging them to come into this damage control thread where they'll continue to be ignored.
Again, I am here and this is a thread for grievances. This isn't damage control. This is the space I have begun to build from the ashes of the Discord. Why would I reach out on a platform that I don't view as the way forward when we could grow, learn, and rebuild here? Come to me on the grounds that I've worked hard to build and am open to discussion on.
Looks like and walks like damage control. Reach out to the shorks
Are you going to ignore everything else I said or say something remotely substantive?
are you gonna ignore me asking you to reach out to the shorks? why can't you reach out to the shorks?
Give me a link.
PM me a link if you'd prefer.
Hey. You claimed I was ignoring you and now that I'm requesting a link it looks like you've ran away? Can I please just get a link?
dm'd you
Hey, please. I'd love to discuss grievances with the Shork community.
dm'd you
Hey, I’m still waiting for a link.
dm'd you
I highly encourage you to tell them to come to this post in particular and voice their grievances that I have not addressed thus far. Please and thank you. :)
I was trying to do yall a favor and explain why trans comrades weren't coming here. If ya'll really give this little of a fuck about it then whatever.
"I don’t represent the whole trans chapo community." If you don't represent them, then tell them to come here and talk to me where I have already stated that I am very available and very open to discussion of grievances.
Again, when the thread was locked, I was at work and unavailable. I am here and now for discussion. Please direct them here if you feel you are a representative of those who have unaddressed grievances.
You can reach out to the shork server. Everyone else managed to do so really easily.
I'm a community leader here. I was never involved in the Shork community. You can tell them to come here if you feel you are a representative of those who have unaddressed grievances.
are you bound to chapo.chat by magic spell or something? You can still reach out if you want to.
deleted by creator
HEY HEY HEY. WOAH WOAH WOAH. NAH. NAH.
...what did they say?
What do you mean? You asked them for proof? Did you not read their response thoroughly enough?
I mean your reaction and the fact that they deleted what was otherwise not a crazy out there comment makes me think something is up here.
I requested they delete it actually and I have receipts to prove it, if you're so curious. I am a transwoman fighting to build a space by and for us. This is not their fight and I don't particularly care what they think or have to say in this matter.
I'd like to take the time to point out bwp was the one that misgendered caden and took two weeks to apologize after 2 seperate negotiations, and they're still a part of the power structure here. This is one qualm I will bring up. You should still contact shorks
I'm aware. Which is another reason I do not want them in this space and especially not this discussion. I am a new moderator open to discussion of grievances.
If you're open to discussion then reach out to the shorks
Give me a link.
Hey, I’m still waiting for a link.
dm'd you
Removed by mod
proof?
Hey, I’m still waiting for a link.
dm'd you
I think this is conflating a "truth and reconciliation committee" approach with a "blank slate" approach. With a blank slate approach, feedback and suggestions don't need to be couched in previous discord discord.
If there are concerns, they can absolutely be addressed and fixes implemented without re-litigating disputes form another platform.
what?
Blank Slate Approach: I'm worried that the current structure is vulnerable to insert general concern and suggest corrective action to mitigate the risk of this occurring. ✅
Importing Discord Drama: I have been harmed by user X on different platform y and want to know what actions will be taken against them here. ❎
I don't see how classifying what's occurred recently as "drama" pertinent only to the Discord platform is productive to the conversation here. The factors that lead to this "drama" are inherent to both communities.
A "blank slate" policy in this context meant leniency towards people that had been targeted in recent banwaves on Discord, not a full dismissal of any conflict that had occurred on the platform.
Strong disagree. I think the structure and format of Discords is a large driver of this sort of thing, because we never encountered anything like it moderating the very large subreddit.
If this place is going to go anywhere, there needs to be an influx of people from the subreddit who (like me) never went to any of the discords so that they can water down the two feuding communities until they are no long meaningfully distinct.
I cannot emphasize enough: Discord bad.
Agreed, discord is bad. On that note, whatever grievances people have against discord mods will fester here since the mod team is exactly the same. Just saying.
No that's a valid point, and I think needs to change, but apparently that's already in the works.
But this isn't the case there are at least three mods who are no longer mods due to actions on the discord.
The subreddit was moderated in a far different manner than the discord (irrespective of platform limitations), I don't think the comparison is apt.
This isn't two feuding communities with "discord drama" spilling over into Lemmy. It's one community and legitimate grievances are reflected on both platforms. Simple as that.
This is the new subreddit, it needs to be moderated like a subreddit.
No it's not. I don't know like 90% of the people here. I'm from the subreddit. Not the discord. So trying to pretend this is an extension of the discord and re-litigating grievances from there is a category error.
I'm discussing the style and manner of moderation, not anything specific to the platform.
Where do you think the discord users came from? We're literally all from the same community. There is no "extension of the discord". Some of us stayed in the discord during the transition, but it is the same community. The grievances that occurred there are relevant to the entire community and it's rather disrespectful to the people that were harmed there to say it has no place here and is just cheap discord drama.
The style and manner of moderation for the subreddit was to warn and then ban attempts to litigate drama from off the subreddit on the subreddit. If we're making this the new subreddit, I don't see why that should be any different here.
I have no idea.
We apparently have different definitions of the word community. The Discords fosters a very distinct culture and userbase compared with the subreddit, so I don't consider them unified at all. A person might belong to both communities, but that doesn't mean they are the same community.
This is part of the conflict and clearly relevant to both platforms.
You're being pedantic at this point. The small subset of the community that had a long-term interest in the discord platform isn't of relevance here. I'm referring to the general r/CTH community, from which 10k managed to join the server in the days following the subreddit ban. Seeing as this is a significant portion of the subreddit's active userbase, the conflicts that occurred there in the weeks after the ban are completely relevant here.
Nope, wasn't a conflict on the subreddit.
Only if you want to have a DiscordOnLemmy Community as opposed to the /r/CTH community.
At this point you're being intentionally obtuse. No one is suggesting that this becomes "DiscordOnLemmy", but the events that took place in the few weeks of transition are clearly relevant to the community now.
This makes me think you don't understand how disagreements work.
Only if you disregard one of the few rules that the subreddit religiously enforced.
If you continually suggest that the discord server that was advertised by the mods just before the ban and managed to capture 10k active users from the subreddit has no relevance to the subreddit now, just weeks later, then yes, I will say you are being intentionally obtuse.
There was another discord that was advertised for over a year on the sidebar that fostered an entirely different culture, atmosphere, and yes community. Don't care about the drama from there either.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯. You're welcome to think this but my genuine view is that unless we want this to turn into DiscordOnLemmy we need to acknowledge the distinct communities.
A "blank slate" means that I personally don't give a single bother about past conflicts, actions, brigading, or whatever so long as they're willing to exist peacefully within the community I'm trying to build up and will continue to build for and by my people. I'm new to modding, past conflicts are not my problem. What is my problem is that my people do not feel safe or welcome here and THAT is something I have a say in. THAT is something I can work with and make improvements upon as a community leader.
If users have not behaved peacefully in this very same community, albeit on a different platform, then past conflicts are ABSOLUTELY your problem as a moderator. On one hand you're saying you want people to feel safe and on the other you're stating that even if a user has previously made members of your community feel unsafe, as long as they behave peacefully from this moment on you have no problem allowing them to participate in your community.
That really sounds like dismissing the issues of the greater trans community, because it's inconvenient for you - which isn't a good way to get all the disaffected trans folks to feel comfortable coming back here.
Past conflicts are not my problem. Your conflict with whoever is your conflict with them. Not me. It's my job to improve upon the structures that led to this situation in the first place, not to be an adjudicator on past issues.
Claiming issues effecting the trans community aren't your problem is kinda yikes.
If you read the entire statement and processed "issues effecting the trans community aren't [my] problem" I highly suggest you re-read it, maybe re-read again, and perhaps even re-read one last time. I'm not here to be an adjudicator on past conflicts with particular people. The Lemmy is a blank slate that I am trying to create a welcoming, safe space for trans and non-binary people on.
If it's that easily misinterpreted then write something else.
As far as I'm concerned, you're the only one here misinterpreting it and I'm highly encouraging you to bring people with legitimate, unaddressed grievances to this post specifically.
So I can get banned and ignored? No thanks. Reach out to the shorks.
Again, for the umpteenth time, I will not be banning or removing good faith grievances posted here. I am new and looking to rebuild from the ashes of the Discord and grow this community.
Other people can still do that though, lol
I'm not those other people and I have directed the moderator team to not remove any good faith arguments made in this thread.
Shorks are also telling me registration is closed. Which I find it hard that you wouldn't know as a mod. How exactly would they even come in this thread anyway? This whole thing is bad faith.
Hey. You claimed I was ignoring you and now that I'm requesting a link it looks like you've ran away? Can I please just get a link?
dm'd you
About time. Thank you.
Give me a link so I can discuss grievances with them.
dm'd you
dm'd you
Hey, I'm still waiting for a link.
dm'd you