We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, or other similar characteristic.

We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behavior. In particular, we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups.

This 'struggle session' has cut open a sore of cisnormativity which allows plausible deniability of transphobic action and thought. It's senseless and insensitive to push back against what should be a non-issue. Cis and trans alike, set your pronouns so as to normalize an aspect of trans inclusion that goes some way to dispel cishet patriarchal norms assumed default by almost every space, especially online.

There is no excuse (that hasn't been considered and discussed and where applicable, taken on board) to push back against this as we as a community have. We can (and should) do better.

    • MiraculousMM [he/him, any]
      5·
      4 years ago

      The way that you and our many trans and nb posters were treated yesterday was awful. I'm so sorry you received the brunt of the worst elements of the argument.

      The point of setting pronouns is supposed to be to make the site more safe and more welcoming for trans and nb users. It was extremely disappointing to see the issue get turned against GNC users who weren't comfortable with setting pronouns and/or simply didn't want to. A comrade who is questioning their identity or isn't comfortable with assigning one to themselves in a public space is not required to do so and doesn't owe that to anyone. The issue was framed by and around actual transphobes way too early on and it poisoned the entire ensuing discussion.

      • the_river_cass [she/her]
        4·
        4 years ago

        I largely agree. encouragement of cis comrades is good, pressuring NB and trans comrades is bad. but here's the thing... I haven't actually seen anyone say "you're transphobic if you don't set pronouns". the closest it's come to that is "it takes 5 seconds and it makes people happy, just do it." which is a far cry from a framing around transphobes.

        the discussion about transphobes has been around what people are saying about why they don't want to set pronouns. a serious amount of it came out in those threads and it impacted me and others.

        • MiraculousMM [he/him, any]
          4·
          4 years ago

          “you’re transphobic if you don’t set pronouns”

          That's been more-or-less implied by a lot of posts from the staunchest supporters of assigning pronouns, and it's been outright said several times in lengthy comment sections and some OP's of threads.

          I cited the "5 seconds" principle several times myself, before reading more and realizing that only really applied to cis comrades who didn't have legitimate reasons for not setting them aside from extreme laziness. Those people are acting shitty and that contributed a lot to why so many users (myself included) are upset with the complete apathy towards solidarity certain cis users have shown. Especially when a lot of their arguments boiled down to "I'm petty and I don't like people telling be what to do!" Like get a fucking grip y'all, if you're cis then this issue isn't about you, and if you think it is, you're not thinking like a leftist.

          • the_river_cass [she/her]
            2·
            4 years ago

            can you link some examples? I genuinely have seen it and it's been bothering me since yesterday as I thought I was in/reading all the threads very carefully.

            • MiraculousMM [he/him, any]
              ·
              4 years ago

              I've been digging into the threads for the last 20 minutes and I actually can't find any specific examples amidst the noise. I also read almost all the debates yesterday, but the posts I'm referring to seem to have gotten buried in the huge discussion, and I should have saved them. My apologies, I hope a comrade with links to specific posts can cite them here.

              • the_river_cass [she/her]
                ·
                4 years ago

                appreciated :) I spent a while looking yesterday as well and didn't find anything. I kind of suspect that the narrative that people were saying this took hold without an actual inciting incident.

              • the_river_cass [she/her]
                1·
                4 years ago

                yeah, I was asking for the reverse, of someone actually saying "you're transphobic if you won't set pronouns" or "you're a TERF if you won't set pronouns" both of which got claimed yesterday (and again in this thread)

                • cumwaffle [she/her]
                  2·
                  4 years ago

                  oh ye those will be hard to find cause they don't actually exist

                  • the_river_cass [she/her]
                    1·
                    4 years ago

                    half the threads on this site call you a lib for something or the other and this is far from the first time a thread calling people libs was pinned. what made this one different?

                      • the_river_cass [she/her]
                        ·
                        4 years ago

                        idk, I upvoted you. I suspect people were expecting the obvious conclusion I was drawing this thread towards; but who knows.

    • cumwaffle [she/her]
      10·
      4 years ago

      nobody even fucking said that "not setting your pronouns is transphobic", i seriously don't get where this bullshit is coming from. mods asked people to set their pronouns to normalize them, nobody is forcing anyone into it, if you dont want to set them then just fucking dont

      this is the absolute dumbest god damn drama session i have ever seen in my life

        • the_river_cass [she/her]
          5·
          4 years ago

          I was very clearly talking about the reaction to the post and how much transphobia was latent in this community that I wasn't aware of? in what way does this say that you're transphobic if you don't set pronouns?

            • cumwaffle [she/her]
              5·
              4 years ago

              1. shes not saying that if you dont set your pronouns you're transphobic

              2. she got downvoted

              3. shes not even a fucking mod

              you're literally just trying to stir shit up for absolutely no reason

            • the_river_cass [she/her]
              4·
              4 years ago

              yes, now please point to where that says you're transphobic if you don't set pronouns?

              I was very clearly talking about the reaction to the post and how much transphobia was latent in this community that I wasn’t aware of? in what way does this say that you’re transphobic if you don’t set pronouns?

                • the_river_cass [she/her]
                  5·
                  4 years ago

                  that a mod made an ask that I perceived to be small, it received a response that staggered me, the quantity of people expressing dislike for the ask was shocking, and that I'm not thrilled about it all.

    • Redcloak [none/use name]
      11·
      4 years ago

      I wish people would be more sensitive to yours (and others') wishes but it seems like a few wreckers are dedicated to belittiling your views and erasing your presence (going so far as to disgustingly imply that you're just some cishet man, even).

      It sucks but just want you to know that I and some less vocal others here support you and acknowledge you. :heart-sickle:

    • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
      21·
      4 years ago

      Love to label all my fellow posters who do not set a pronoun TERFS in a pinned announcement.

      What cool mods we have.

      As always, storyofrachel was the good mod and was kicked from the discord and admin list for it.

      • the_river_cass [she/her]
        2·
        4 years ago

        where did this idea even come from? I literally have no clue and it's been baffling me since yesterday. the only people who got called TERFs were the very few TERFs that actually popped their heads up and said TERF stuff. I haven't seen a word from anyone arguing that everyone who refuses to set pronouns is a TERF (or even transphobic)

        • Abraxiel
          1·
          4 years ago

          I honestly think that it started and spiraled from the original post telling people to set their pronouns and flag nsfl being worded kind of accusatorily, as if everyone should have already known by now that they needed to be flaired and that by not having done so they were bad people. Maybe some of that tone came from previous conversations, I don't know, but since that was one of the first site-wide pinned posts, it was probably a lot of users' first exposure to the idea that it was even an issue.

          • the_river_cass [she/her]
            3·
            4 years ago

            wasn't it worded like "you're a lib if you don't set pronouns"? that's so typical of posts on this site that I'm literally floored it started this shitstorm. it points to a deep fragility that I hope people introspect on.

            • Abraxiel
              4·
              4 years ago

              I would identify this paragraph as the point of friction:

              For the libs shouting “but muh anonymity”, you should have zero issue using the “any pronoun” tag as you will be addressed with any pronouns regardless of whether or not you have it set. The point of having them sitewide is for everyone to use them to normalize explicitly stating one’s pronouns as a means of not forcing trans people to request to be addressed with basic respect. The amount of pushback on a meaningful step toward trans inclusivity in this community is pretty fucking disheartening, not gonna lie.

              There's a loose implication that users who hadn't set their pronouns were contributing to or participating in trans people not being treated with basic respect. This probably wouldn't read as aggressively were it not followed by the next sentence referencing a fucking disheartening level of pushback toward trans inclusivity, which likely didn't square with how many users thought the site was doing.

              I want to be clear that I'm not evaluating whether or not the post was appropriate; I am interested in dissecting what happened and why.

              • the_river_cass [she/her]
                1·
                4 years ago

                his probably wouldn’t read as aggressively were it not followed by the next sentence referencing a fucking disheartening level of pushback toward trans inclusivity, which likely didn’t square with how many users thought the site was doing.

                it's a reference to a thread that went south the day before on !userunion@hexbear.net that was in fact disheartening, filled with a lot of ignorance, and taxed the nerves of a lot of people. if you believe the site is doing well and suddenly trans people are saying no its not and your first reaction is to get defensive and treat everything as a personal attack, do you really think that's a reasonable reaction?

                • Abraxiel
                  1·
                  4 years ago

                  I think it might be read as a personal attack and cause people to act defensively if they haven't seen the pushback and feel, helped by the general tone of the post, that the anger is directed at them for not having set their pronouns.

                  • the_river_cass [she/her]
                    1·
                    4 years ago

                    no, I got that, I'd like people to consider if that's reasonable or if we should take political minorities seriously when they raise issues about the community. isn't that what we mean when we say solidarity?

          • the_river_cass [she/her]
            2·
            4 years ago

            that's literally not what that says though? I was talking about my surprise at the level of transphobia on the site, not saying that people who didn't set pronouns are transphobic?

      • itsPina [he/him, she/her]
        6·
        4 years ago

        they aint callin flairless people TERFs they are calling TERFs TERFs

        like we specifically have pronoun options FOR people who dont wanna set their pronouns

        if what you want AINT there just tell us about it, its that easy.

        • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
          15·
          4 years ago

          What fucking terfs follow to chapo.chat? This community is about the most trans positive space you can find on the internet and the only thing that has made it not that is this weird militant struggle session over imposing pronoun flairs on users that were in no way discriminating to begin with.

          • itsPina [he/him, she/her]
            3·
            4 years ago

            /u/bread_in_baltimore while a good comrade most of the time is VERY terfy rn

            we have banned a ton of people dawg, just cuz you dont seem doesnt mean we dont

              • the_river_cass [she/her]
                4·
                4 years ago

                "radical social values" is just reactionary. also, mocking pronouns is... yeah...

            • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
              6·
              4 years ago

              I have been trying not to spend more than 10 minutes in any of these huge struggle session threads, so you're probably right they dredge up especially terfy users and trolls.

              My experience from using this site for the past three months though in hundreds of threads is that it is a firmly trans supportive community and this pronoun requirement is an unnecessary announcement that only really weirds out new users that didn't sign up to be yelled at over nothing.

              • itsPina [he/him, she/her]
                2·
                4 years ago

                Its not really required, otherwise it could literally just be forced on the back end, but it is recommended. If someone doesnt want to flair up for identity reasons literally ZERO people on the mod team have issues with that but if someone just wants to say "muh anonymity" they can get bent cuz we literally have flairs specifically for that

                The idea was if EVERYONE flairs up itd make those who dont feel pressured to do so as well (not in a bad way)

                  • itsPina [he/him, she/her]
                    2·
                    4 years ago

                    idk why people wanna be misgendered anyways dude. I flaired up as soon as I could. even as a relatively cis person (well enby that still uses he/him) i find misgender situations kinda awkward.

                    not like its hard, and there are options for those who dont wanna share. its literally five clicks

                  • Redcloak [none/use name]
                    8·
                    4 years ago

                    More than a few trans people have told you that they feel like you are trying to force them to out themselves. At least one of those people have repeated their concerns in this very thread. Rather than be sensitive to these concerns, you are erasing their opinions and experiences.

                      • Redcloak [none/use name]
                        8·
                        4 years ago

                        Literally everyone agrees with this.

                        Erasure in action, with not even a hint of remorse or self-reflection. Gleeful in its erasure, in fact, positively giddy about it.

                        • itsPina [he/him, she/her]
                          1·
                          4 years ago

                          wtf does this even mean dude

                          show some evidence of ANYONE trying to force pronouns (at least anyone who represents the site)

                          actually YOU CANT cuz youre BANNED SON

        • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
          8·
          4 years ago

          Me? I haven't typed that phrase once on this site, you're likely thinking of someone else.

          It's not moral policing, it's needless effort directed toward people who stand beside you instead of at actual people that you should be focused on combating.

          This weird grandstanding by a moderator abusing the power to pin posts for a week now has been frustrating. Its only function is to provoke people, that's why she keeps phrasing shit so aggressively towards user accounts with a default blank option.

            • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
              12·
              4 years ago

              "Moral policing" and "performative sensitivity" are in no way the same.

              This bullshit over yelling at users to set flair as if that's in any way solving something is dumb and performative, in turn with pinning that to the top, which is to be expected from someone who chose the name "transcomrade" as if they are any moreso than others here. Who are you preaching to, we're all here for that reason too.

                • Redcloak [none/use name]
                  11·
                  4 years ago

                  That's not an issue of them not being the exact same phrasing. Those two terms mean completely different things. Take the L.

                      • the_river_cass [she/her]
                        3·
                        4 years ago

                        the first means "this is inconsequential and this user is forcing it on me anyway" the second means "this is inconsequential and this user is being dishonest about their intentions". is that difference really salient?

                        • Redcloak [none/use name]
                          9·
                          4 years ago

                          Moral police do not consider the actions they are policing to be "inconsequential". That is why they bother policing them, because they consider them to be the exact opposite of inconsequential.

                          I understand that you're extremely nettled about something but can you not try to nakedly gaslight us about words in the English language?

                          • the_river_cass [she/her]
                            2·
                            4 years ago

                            you're misreading what I'm saying. the user calling it moral policing believes it to be too inconsequential to deserve the force that's being applied. you wouldn't call opposition to murder "moral policing", right?

                        • 90u9y8gb9t86vytv97g [they/them]
                          8·
                          4 years ago

                          You are doing the debate club thing, you literally started this with exact quotes about repeated phrasing of some term you took offense to that you invented.

        • Redcloak [none/use name]
          8·
          4 years ago

          Multiple different times you’ve referred to respecting neopronouns as “moral policing”

          I just did a quick search and this appears to be a lie.