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This 'struggle session' has cut open a sore of cisnormativity which allows plausible deniability of transphobic action and thought. It's senseless and insensitive to push back against what should be a non-issue. Cis and trans alike, set your pronouns so as to normalize an aspect of trans inclusion that goes some way to dispel cishet patriarchal norms assumed default by almost every space, especially online.
There is no excuse (that hasn't been considered and discussed and where applicable, taken on board) to push back against this as we as a community have. We can (and should) do better.
Honest question because I'm a little out of loop. Seeing a whole lot of these posts lately and were TERFS genuinely a big problem on this site?
Being a leftist but not supporting Trans liberation is like saying - "Yeah, I'm a Marxist who supports the struggles of the working class... except for service workers - they don't count as laborers." Just does not compute.
Hoping our Trans comrades are feeling welcome here!
Its not a BIG problem but its VERY noticeable when theres a terf stirring shit. It only takes one or two in a thread to ruin everyones mood. We will probably have a context thread or whatever to make it clear what went down for those who aint terminally online. If nobody does it soon I'll make sure and do it myself :)
seriously soured me every time one popped in and the impact of that kind of transphobia takes serious time and emotional reserves to manage. it really doesn't take many of them in addition to the huge outpouring of well-meaning but ignorant and repetitive questions to overwhelm someone emotionally.
Glad you're here, and thankful for your dedication to this community
Yep, you are absolutely correct. Hopefully this gets taken care of right here and we can go back to posting pig poop balls and garfield porn. If you have any problems feel free to message me or the other mods :)
appreciated :). I think the biggest thing people (speaking generally) can do to reduce the impact of these things is just to manage their own sense of entitlement and especially what they're projecting on others, three times so when the person you're talking to is a member of a political minority that's dealing with a lot of shit at that moment of time.
Yeah like if you are ignorant on the history or need for Neopronouns just fucking READ about it, dont ask some dumb question that can be taken offensively. Sure if you actually need a clarification ask someone but PLEASE don't just say "duhh i dont get neopronouns whats the point? doesnt he her they work duhhh" esp when 1000 people have answered it already
okay lib if you dont wanna read theory at least watch the matrix
I don't know if this is too big an ask... but maybe a "Pronoun Etiquette 101 FAQ" to sticky? My gender identity is something I've always just taken for granted, and pronouns have honestly never really been "on my radar."
Communicating online makes it doubly tough because you can't really pick up on comfort cues you could with face to face convos.
I'm willing to assist but I don't have the bandwidth to write this myself.
I second this, it would be a great resource. Namely if written by a trans comrade, of course.
Ah, got it. Yeah, guess just takes one idiot taking a dump in the pool to ruin it for everyone. Sorry y'all have to put up with that.
Its okay. Its honestly good to know what had so many (even if it was a very small minority) terfs here so we can get them the fuck out. Like I guarantee we have more trans pals than TERFs here and we need to make it VERY clear that TERFs will NEVER be welcome here.
I was shocked by how many posters, even longtime ones, posted disgusting transphobic shit in the pronoun threads. It caught a lot of people off-guard, myself included, which fanned the flames of the struggle sesh way more than I think anyone expected.
The way that you and our many trans and nb posters were treated yesterday was awful. I'm so sorry you received the brunt of the worst elements of the argument.
The point of setting pronouns is supposed to be to make the site more safe and more welcoming for trans and nb users. It was extremely disappointing to see the issue get turned against GNC users who weren't comfortable with setting pronouns and/or simply didn't want to. A comrade who is questioning their identity or isn't comfortable with assigning one to themselves in a public space is not required to do so and doesn't owe that to anyone. The issue was framed by and around actual transphobes way too early on and it poisoned the entire ensuing discussion.
I largely agree. encouragement of cis comrades is good, pressuring NB and trans comrades is bad. but here's the thing... I haven't actually seen anyone say "you're transphobic if you don't set pronouns". the closest it's come to that is "it takes 5 seconds and it makes people happy, just do it." which is a far cry from a framing around transphobes.
the discussion about transphobes has been around what people are saying about why they don't want to set pronouns. a serious amount of it came out in those threads and it impacted me and others.
“you’re transphobic if you don’t set pronouns”
That's been more-or-less implied by a lot of posts from the staunchest supporters of assigning pronouns, and it's been outright said several times in lengthy comment sections and some OP's of threads.
I cited the "5 seconds" principle several times myself, before reading more and realizing that only really applied to cis comrades who didn't have legitimate reasons for not setting them aside from extreme laziness. Those people are acting shitty and that contributed a lot to why so many users (myself included) are upset with the complete apathy towards solidarity certain cis users have shown. Especially when a lot of their arguments boiled down to "I'm petty and I don't like people telling be what to do!" Like get a fucking grip y'all, if you're cis then this issue isn't about you, and if you think it is, you're not thinking like a leftist.
can you link some examples? I genuinely have seen it and it's been bothering me since yesterday as I thought I was in/reading all the threads very carefully.
I've been digging into the threads for the last 20 minutes and I actually can't find any specific examples amidst the noise. I also read almost all the debates yesterday, but the posts I'm referring to seem to have gotten buried in the huge discussion, and I should have saved them. My apologies, I hope a comrade with links to specific posts can cite them here.
appreciated :) I spent a while looking yesterday as well and didn't find anything. I kind of suspect that the narrative that people were saying this took hold without an actual inciting incident.
"wtf why am i getting called out for being lazy and petty stop bullying me"
yeah, I was asking for the reverse, of someone actually saying "you're transphobic if you won't set pronouns" or "you're a TERF if you won't set pronouns" both of which got claimed yesterday (and again in this thread)
half the threads on this site call you a lib for something or the other and this is far from the first time a thread calling people libs was pinned. what made this one different?
idk, I upvoted you. I suspect people were expecting the obvious conclusion I was drawing this thread towards; but who knows.
nobody even fucking said that "not setting your pronouns is transphobic", i seriously don't get where this bullshit is coming from. mods asked people to set their pronouns to normalize them, nobody is forcing anyone into it, if you dont want to set them then just fucking dont
this is the absolute dumbest god damn drama session i have ever seen in my life
I was very clearly talking about the reaction to the post and how much transphobia was latent in this community that I wasn't aware of? in what way does this say that you're transphobic if you don't set pronouns?
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shes not saying that if you dont set your pronouns you're transphobic
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she got downvoted
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shes not even a fucking mod
you're literally just trying to stir shit up for absolutely no reason
jesus fucking christ i'm just gonna stick to trans-only communities from now on, bullshit like this is going to give me a stroke
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yes, now please point to where that says you're transphobic if you don't set pronouns?
I was very clearly talking about the reaction to the post and how much transphobia was latent in this community that I wasn’t aware of? in what way does this say that you’re transphobic if you don’t set pronouns?
that a mod made an ask that I perceived to be small, it received a response that staggered me, the quantity of people expressing dislike for the ask was shocking, and that I'm not thrilled about it all.
if you middle click (or hit open as new tab) it doesnt open the tab right
I wish people would be more sensitive to yours (and others') wishes but it seems like a few wreckers are dedicated to belittiling your views and erasing your presence (going so far as to disgustingly imply that you're just some cishet man, even).
It sucks but just want you to know that I and some less vocal others here support you and acknowledge you. :heart-sickle:
Love to label all my fellow posters who do not set a pronoun TERFS in a pinned announcement.
What cool mods we have.
As always, storyofrachel was the good mod and was kicked from the discord and admin list for it.
where did this idea even come from? I literally have no clue and it's been baffling me since yesterday. the only people who got called TERFs were the very few TERFs that actually popped their heads up and said TERF stuff. I haven't seen a word from anyone arguing that everyone who refuses to set pronouns is a TERF (or even transphobic)
I honestly think that it started and spiraled from the original post telling people to set their pronouns and flag nsfl being worded kind of accusatorily, as if everyone should have already known by now that they needed to be flaired and that by not having done so they were bad people. Maybe some of that tone came from previous conversations, I don't know, but since that was one of the first site-wide pinned posts, it was probably a lot of users' first exposure to the idea that it was even an issue.
wasn't it worded like "you're a lib if you don't set pronouns"? that's so typical of posts on this site that I'm literally floored it started this shitstorm. it points to a deep fragility that I hope people introspect on.
I would identify this paragraph as the point of friction:
For the libs shouting “but muh anonymity”, you should have zero issue using the “any pronoun” tag as you will be addressed with any pronouns regardless of whether or not you have it set. The point of having them sitewide is for everyone to use them to normalize explicitly stating one’s pronouns as a means of not forcing trans people to request to be addressed with basic respect. The amount of pushback on a meaningful step toward trans inclusivity in this community is pretty fucking disheartening, not gonna lie.
There's a loose implication that users who hadn't set their pronouns were contributing to or participating in trans people not being treated with basic respect. This probably wouldn't read as aggressively were it not followed by the next sentence referencing a fucking disheartening level of pushback toward trans inclusivity, which likely didn't square with how many users thought the site was doing.
I want to be clear that I'm not evaluating whether or not the post was appropriate; I am interested in dissecting what happened and why.
his probably wouldn’t read as aggressively were it not followed by the next sentence referencing a fucking disheartening level of pushback toward trans inclusivity, which likely didn’t square with how many users thought the site was doing.
it's a reference to a thread that went south the day before on !userunion@hexbear.net that was in fact disheartening, filled with a lot of ignorance, and taxed the nerves of a lot of people. if you believe the site is doing well and suddenly trans people are saying no its not and your first reaction is to get defensive and treat everything as a personal attack, do you really think that's a reasonable reaction?
I think it might be read as a personal attack and cause people to act defensively if they haven't seen the pushback and feel, helped by the general tone of the post, that the anger is directed at them for not having set their pronouns.
no, I got that, I'd like people to consider if that's reasonable or if we should take political minorities seriously when they raise issues about the community. isn't that what we mean when we say solidarity?
that's literally not what that says though? I was talking about my surprise at the level of transphobia on the site, not saying that people who didn't set pronouns are transphobic?
they aint callin flairless people TERFs they are calling TERFs TERFs
like we specifically have pronoun options FOR people who dont wanna set their pronouns
if what you want AINT there just tell us about it, its that easy.
What fucking terfs follow to chapo.chat? This community is about the most trans positive space you can find on the internet and the only thing that has made it not that is this weird militant struggle session over imposing pronoun flairs on users that were in no way discriminating to begin with.
/u/bread_in_baltimore while a good comrade most of the time is VERY terfy rn
we have banned a ton of people dawg, just cuz you dont seem doesnt mean we dont
"radical social values" is just reactionary. also, mocking pronouns is... yeah...
I have been trying not to spend more than 10 minutes in any of these huge struggle session threads, so you're probably right they dredge up especially terfy users and trolls.
My experience from using this site for the past three months though in hundreds of threads is that it is a firmly trans supportive community and this pronoun requirement is an unnecessary announcement that only really weirds out new users that didn't sign up to be yelled at over nothing.
Its not really required, otherwise it could literally just be forced on the back end, but it is recommended. If someone doesnt want to flair up for identity reasons literally ZERO people on the mod team have issues with that but if someone just wants to say "muh anonymity" they can get bent cuz we literally have flairs specifically for that
The idea was if EVERYONE flairs up itd make those who dont feel pressured to do so as well (not in a bad way)
idk why people wanna be misgendered anyways dude. I flaired up as soon as I could. even as a relatively cis person (well enby that still uses he/him) i find misgender situations kinda awkward.
not like its hard, and there are options for those who dont wanna share. its literally five clicks
More than a few trans people have told you that they feel like you are trying to force them to out themselves. At least one of those people have repeated their concerns in this very thread. Rather than be sensitive to these concerns, you are erasing their opinions and experiences.
Literally everyone agrees with this.
Erasure in action, with not even a hint of remorse or self-reflection. Gleeful in its erasure, in fact, positively giddy about it.
wtf does this even mean dude
show some evidence of ANYONE trying to force pronouns (at least anyone who represents the site)
actually YOU CANT cuz youre BANNED SON
I made a post yesterday in !userunion@hexbear.net with links to a couple of TERF rhetoric comments + the modlog has another user spouting slurs/suicide BS.
Me? I haven't typed that phrase once on this site, you're likely thinking of someone else.
It's not moral policing, it's needless effort directed toward people who stand beside you instead of at actual people that you should be focused on combating.
This weird grandstanding by a moderator abusing the power to pin posts for a week now has been frustrating. Its only function is to provoke people, that's why she keeps phrasing shit so aggressively towards user accounts with a default blank option.
"Moral policing" and "performative sensitivity" are in no way the same.
This bullshit over yelling at users to set flair as if that's in any way solving something is dumb and performative, in turn with pinning that to the top, which is to be expected from someone who chose the name "transcomrade" as if they are any moreso than others here. Who are you preaching to, we're all here for that reason too.
That's not an issue of them not being the exact same phrasing. Those two terms mean completely different things. Take the L.
the first means "this is inconsequential and this user is forcing it on me anyway" the second means "this is inconsequential and this user is being dishonest about their intentions". is that difference really salient?
Moral police do not consider the actions they are policing to be "inconsequential". That is why they bother policing them, because they consider them to be the exact opposite of inconsequential.
I understand that you're extremely nettled about something but can you not try to nakedly gaslight us about words in the English language?
you're misreading what I'm saying. the user calling it moral policing believes it to be too inconsequential to deserve the force that's being applied. you wouldn't call opposition to murder "moral policing", right?
You are doing the debate club thing, you literally started this with exact quotes about repeated phrasing of some term you took offense to that you invented.
Multiple different times you’ve referred to respecting neopronouns as “moral policing”
I just did a quick search and this appears to be a lie.
Why did you use quotes if you didn't want to convey the impression that you were directly quoting?
TERFS GET THE WALL
GET THE WALL TERFS
THE WALL TERFS GET
WALL TERFS GET THE
Does the website have a way to measure "controversy" besides downvotes? Because I'm gonna get pissed as hell if I found out people were downvoting trans-related threads out of knee-jerk reactionary bullshit. Fuck outta here with that shit. The internet is full of sewage tanks to stew in if you wanna be a shithead. Go back to one of them and don't come back.
peep the header for this thread. it's been consistently 25% downvotes (and hundreds of upvotes on threads taking the opposite position)
I worked nine and a half hours today so my energy levels were low but now I've got the rage high. This fucking site isn't reddit, if you have objections say them so we can discuss them like adults. Hiding behind downvotes is shithead behavior. Kindly knock that shit off. (I am not directing this at you, @the_river_cass )
ohhh they did that too. yesterday was an exhausting day. so many people spouting ignorant and transphobic things (including some I thought were comrades). many people who insisted that neopronouns are only valid if justified to them personally. and a good healthy dose of "your feelings aren't valid" as a nice rotten cherry on that shit cake.
That is disappointing as hell. I stopped talking with, I dunno what you call them, a trans-medicalist? Sorry I'm cis so I'm not sure what the term is so I'll give the definition: they were phobic of non-binary trans people. And the kicker? They were trans. So fucking offputting. Such a toxic fucking stance to take. And this was years after they had done a lot of the other sorts of things non-binary people do, and people who are questioning their sexuality or gender identity. Cut that asshole out of my life and never looked back. It was "fuck you got mine" but from a trans person who claimed to be a communist.
yeah, that's their term for it now. I still call them truscum. trans transphobes is what they are.
Now that you mention it, I have heard the term "truscum" before I just forgot about it. I'll try to remember that going forward. It has a nice ring to it, and if it offends someone, good, they are offensive and deserve to be offended.
I didn't log in for like 10 days and I come back to all this shit. What the fuck have you been up to chapo chat.
Make sure and thank /u/QuillQuote. Hes been very vocal the last two days with what needs to happen and I do think he helped push the mods!
Yeah I knew you in particular were targeted with a lot of hate (and I knew you were Quills friend) so I made sure to take what Quill said to heart. Me and him have been PMing all day and I hope hes feeling a lil better with the direction of the site!
If you EVER have any problems with anyone feel free to PM me or any of the other mods/admins and we will make sure its taken care of. (this goes for ANYONE on the site, seriously just PM me cuz i want the site to be healthy :) )
I am just a lowly /c/dunktank janitor but the admins listen to me when I complain the modchat which is good! I cant see site wide reports tho :\ I trust the other mods to have that taken care of. Again, if you find its not being resolved just message me and ill bring it to everyones attention
this has been the definition of A Hellsite the last two days
Literally only because this person keeps intentionally stirring shit. I've seen no one frustrated over this until @TransComrade69 decided she needed to abuse mod powers to start some dumbass struggle session over user flair.
Absolutely agree. And what makes it most egregious is not implementing custom pronouns in any meaningful way at all.
If they want to hammer on everyone setting pronouns, that is fine by me; but first make sure it is properly implemented.This system of approving only some pronouns to be on the drop-down is simply shit.
Not everyone is comfortable asking or begging for their pronouns, especially now that they have to be acceptable for the pronouns list.There was not even the minimum effort of prepopulating that neopronouns list with many well known options beforehand.
No effort has been made to deal with the contradiction between pronouns used by trolls and custom pronouns.
And allowing no more than two selections has its own problems, especially considering there are some universal pronouns on that list.It might be as simple as allowing people to set entirely custom pronoun flairs after >10 posts with >10 hexbears on a >10 days old account.
Then just banning those people (by then having an active account to lose) that abuse custom pronouns.There is no dialogue here, they implement these half-baked policies impulsively, without even a trial run or silent update first, then simultaneously put up sticky edicts, and react to criticism only after it has predictably blown up in their face.
I have seriously been thinking about starting like a Chapo Independent Advisory Committee or some shit, just to discourage them from creating more pathetic clusterfucks like this one.There are real issues of misogyny, transphobia, queerphobia, and ignorance here. But restarting this struggle session again today is absolutely obnoxious and not going to solve anything. It is not enough to have convictions, the admins need to be more competent than this.
And the notion that ciswomen, under pseudonyms on the internet, should out themselves and just deal with online misogyny, for feminism.
A very nice theory but maybe let people make up their own fucking minds and change it whenever they feel ready.Even something as simple as adding more neopronouns in the first batch so there is a larger number of people using them at once, to dilute the trolling as it were, is somehow too complex for these admins to think about beforehand.
Maybe the worst of it is how they have combined these completely separate issues: "Hey if more cis-people would set their pronouns that would be nice because reasons you probably have not thought about" and "Hey look we have neopronouns now!"
In both cases TERFs, stupidpols, and some otherwise tedious cis-people get to whine about it; and then everyone agrees they should grow up or piss off.
But now by combining these two events, and with extra spicy accusations, it was specifically setting up threads with cis-males that do not want to set their pronouns against those using neopronouns.Nice work admins. Maybe those wreckers were right after all. The road to hell is paved with good intentions?
I'm not setting my pronouns on this stupid website again until neither I nor my queerest siblings have to fucking lie about it.
And letting stupidpols and trans-respectability-politics whiners decide there is "no fun allowed for catgirls on ChapoChat" has left me wondering what is going on in Reddit/Twitter/Tumblr/Facebook groups where queer people are actually allowed to express themselves and just have fun with it.But noooo... it is a whole new day! There is nothing to do differently.... just relight the same dumpsterfire struggle sesh from yesterday. :dumpster-fire:
Edit: at least Beatnik's just posted sticky was much better.
I know I've seen sentiment from some very active trans posters that this issue has made them feel that this is not a trans-inclusive space. I just want to say that, as a cis not very active poster, I genuinely love each and every one of you trans comrades, and I hope that the fucking weird struggle session that's happened here doesn't give you the perspective that there aren't cis comrades who are supportive of you.
Be the Tanner you want to see in the world :che-smile:
Trans rights are human rights, if you disagree eat shit.
