Maybe my favourite book series! Intelligent dialogue dealing with consequences of even minor decisions. The hierarchy is criticised constantly, shown for being trivial, hypocritical and based almost entirely in violence and threats based on strength in numbers (implied and real).
I can't choose a favourite character or arc, but I really love ADWD for really elaborating on and setting up new goals for stories that had more or else finished their first act.
I also enjoy that while GRRM indulges in 'pure evil' characters such as Joffrey, The Mountain, Ramsay and Euron (Read that TWOW preview chapter- it's Godly!) he still establishes that most people commit horrific acts while being actual complex people in a shit system (Theon, Jamie, Stannis).
Main two characters also should be noted are a staunch abolitionist (Dany) and a man who sacrifices himself for refugees who he successfully migrated (Jon). Considering the ramifications they both faced for their decisions they both managed to be awesome, intelligent and compassionate, despite the consistently horrific implications and threats.
What are your favourite characters, arcs, worldbuilding or quotes? Any real life political figures you'd like to compare to ASOIAF characters?
Hello, friend! I also love ASOIAF. I really enjoy Brienne's chapters because in many cases she acts as a camera for the smallfolk of Westeros in a way that no other character does. We get to learn a lot more about the world from the perspective of people who aren't royalty or children of lords or otherwise people with supposedly great destinies. I find Bran's chapters to be interesting, too, especially if you interpret some of his arc in the botched TV show in a darker way, with the hopes that George will give him more of a role in the actual plotline of the novels. I really hope that the Others have a goal besides "complete eradication of humans", we eventually get a hint at some of their motivations, and Bran will be involved in whatever action is taken to negotiate or defeat them.
A lot of people dislike all the Meereen politics, but I like it. Dany has to rapidly grow up from a pure idealist into someone who has to make actual policy and attempt to balance her desires and ultimate goals with the reality of being thrust into a position of great power. She's attempting to mend relations between factions that have never been allied, even after all her upheaval and attempts to eradicate slavery, and she is also struggling to manage the equivalent of three nukes gradually growing larger. It's a pretty chaotic situation.
A lot of people dislike all the Meereen politics, but I like it. Dany has to rapidly grow up from a pure idealist into someone who has to make actual policy and attempt to balance her desires and ultimate goals with the reality of being thrust into a position of great power.
Her difficulty in banning slavery was such hamfisted liberal propaganda. "We all agree slavery is bad, but we cant ban it because it's just not realistic". Its the same lie they tell themselves for why Obama cant stop bombing weddings or why we cant have healthcare.
She needed to liquidate the slaver class and radically redistribute wealth and restructure society
Yeah she tries to compromise and pisses off everyone. She should have just sided unflinchingly with the slave class
I see it more like "Radically restructuring society will come with consequences". That's not a libby argument of "Guess those slavers should have stayed in power!" or "The Meereenese can have little a slavery, as a treat", but rather just a natural consequence of extreme action. Dany didn't want to outright slaughter everyone in support of slavery, but leaving behind the sympathizers has its issues, and simply removing the slavers without providing safety nets means that some of the slaves are either desperate or deluded enough to wish things were back to the way they were used to. You're being naive if you think it could have gone anywhere else with Dany being who she is - a fucking fourteen year old girl with a handful of advisors, not a hardened strategist and revolutionary architect.
No revolution is going to come without struggle. No revolution is going to come without consequences. That doesn't mean the takeaway message is "We should leave things as they are."
No I think it correctly showed the slaver class being counterrevolutionary terrorists. Dany was being a lib and didn’t want to liquidate their class. She should have went with her instinct to kill every single slaver.
I'm kind of glad Winds of Winter is taking forever, I don't think I would have the energy to pick it up yet, after the TV show fiasco.
It's so amazing for such an enormous cultural thing to be destroyed and dissapear completely overnight. Like, it's like it never happened! But three stupid space slavers movies from the 1970 still haunt us todsy with shitton of ramifications and bullshit.
If I was Bezos, after solving poverty and lack of infaestruxture in the world, and before beheading myself, I would pay for the remake of seasons 7 and 8 and the necessary seasons 9, 10 , 11 and 12.
that whole mythos is so fucking dead to me
I will never forget that midnight showing of Phantom Menace on opening day in 1999 and the way everyone cheered at the beginning and the crowd slowly got quieter during the film until at the end everyone filed out depressed and making excuses
What was the thing that made you say "this is bullshit"? I never watched any of the movies
you could sense a physical reaction in the crowd about twenty minutes in when it became clear that Jar-Jar was going to be a major character not an incidental one
What was so bad about that character? He was silly and had a funny voice, no?
racially coded as an afro-caribbean analogue, bad sambo vibes
portrayed as a buffoon or sap the whole time
Oooooh.
I always thought the hate came from him being annoying comic relief, which sometimes can work.
three stupid space slavers movies from the 1970
Sorry, what's this a reference to?
There's slavery in original Star Wars? Elaborate if you care please. I just feel like it's going over my head.
Wasn't the Habba the Hut guy a slaver?
Anyways: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Slavery
Howland reed will come back and drop an absolute fire mixtape
Pretty cool that George is still getting better as a writer. People seem to like to complain that Feast and Dance have meandering, inconsequential stories therefore showing George has fallen off as a writer. They are not bad books, and his quality as a writer has not diminished. For me both had higher quality prose than the previous 3 books, and as you mentioned the Euron chapter is Godly and possibly the best thing he’s written in this series.
Adding all the detail to the world and then writing the backstory for Hedge Knight and the history books shows he is looking to add depth to the characters decisions
I wondered why he needed fake Aegon, but it makes sense after the TV show debacle
im trying to read the books but it seems the only thing that rly gets me interested these days are cli-fi or postapocalyptic fiction (i recently finished parable of the sower by octavia butler). However I watched some of altshiftx's videos and I rly do appreciate the worldbuilding. I love how there are so many theories and mysteries (like who is the knight of the laughing tree, who wrote the pink letter, is aegon actually faegon). I also appreciate GRRM's LGBTQ representation, such a rare thing in fantasy.
Yeah they are a fun read, the TV show is less fun but still watchable.
I think Brienne is my favourite character. She isn't the brightest and actually believes all the chivalry stuff and tries to live by it as a knight. Watching her slow realisation that it's all a total fucking lie is fun.
Not gonna compare any of them to real life people cos that'd be a bit daft, no offence. I don't think you can really draw any meaningful comparisons between fictional fantasy characters and politicians. I'll leave that for the hardcore harry potter lot.
hahah, I remember 2016 was peak GOT and peak election, and saw very sincere comparisons between Bernie and High Sparrow which infuriated me.
It really is an impressive feat of deep worldbuilding, and I've been into the series since before the show aired, and long before the show shit all over the story. Anyway, there was a discussion not long ago in one of the associated reddit subs that seems particularly relevant here. It's always nice seeing leftist thinking pop up in somewhat unexpected places:
My main criticism/missed opportunity of this series is that there are so few (practically none) commoner/proletariat class POVs
I completely agree. I think GRRM does a good job of exposing the cruelty and hypocrisy of the elite class in so much as it is possible to do so when seen only from their perspective. But I also can't help but feel my fists clenching at the missed opportunity to really deeply examine the class conflict that is interwoven throughout the story and integral to most aspects of the plot.
I know that's not what these stories are "about" per se, and I'm grateful it gets touched on as much as it does, e.g., displaying some of the consequences of the wars of nobility on the smallfolk in Brienne's chapters. But for the most part, we only get the perspectives from the people at the top without much consideration from them that they aren't actually superior beings to the masses below.
Then again, it's a fantasy series with magical bloodlines, and it's unrealistic I suppose, to expect serious class analysis in such a format, but holy shit I can't shake the "so close yet so far away" sense of what could be done in that respect.
Yeah he definitely needs to have a commoner POV. I guess Davos is the closest, but he surrounds himself with the elite.
It might be because GRRM wants us to have bigger picture for the violence, the reasons the elite allow ______ to happen.
i hope the theory that euron greyjoy bring the apocalypse happens, its my favorite theory for the next book, that pus the night lamp theory
Oh yeah, the Eldritch Apocalypse theory is my favorite too. Poor_Quentyn's piece on it is some excellent and compelling reading. The show committed many heinous crimes against the narrative, and one of the big ones for me was their turning the darkest and most mysterious figure in the series into some 'zany buffoon' making finger-in-the-bum jokes. Euron was done fuckin' dirty.
yeah show euron is lame, not like book euron who is currently attemting to create a blood sacrifice to awaken the old gods of the ironborn
I’ve gotten so burned out by the wait between books in the past two fucking decades that the only thing I really enjoy are wild conspiracy theories like this.
yeah me too, i cant wait for euron to get the horn of winter, another theory i hope its real is that young griff is a blackfyre
God I don't I feel like its the most anime-esque shit I've ever read
I can't remember exactly- but from memory Varys 'for the realm' motivations are a show thing. (Which I dig) He's a bit more of a monarchist purist in the books- wanting Targaryens to return as it's their rightful place.
After all he kills Kevan because he's being too competent and not causing enough chaos. If he was a 'for the people' kind of guy you'd have to call him an accelerationist.
In the books he and Illyrio are merlings, plotting to start a war of dragons to melt the north and raise the ocean levels so the merfolk can feast. Everything else was a distraction from the great submergence.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/1gvbr7/all_spoilerstheory_the_best_theory_about_varys_i/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body
I love the ridiculous theories people are able to defend out of these books. and then one of them turned out to be true
spoiler
time-traveling Bran mind-controlling Hodor
and I lost basically all interest.
I guess the question is whether he knows he is a fake Targaryen or not. And whether he cares. In terms of PR, the aesthetics of a white haired man with recognisable white Westerosi allies are a bit better as an invading/liberating force than Dany with her Khalsar and Unsullied.
Ngl Varys is my guy, he actually gives a shit about the people, PLUS he's volcel. The only character deserving the title of king, as ironic as that is
When starting the first book I was hating it because all the main characters were feudal lords and ladies who I didn't give a fuck for cuz fuck them "kill them all they all deserve it". But I got hooked anyways. I would have liked a "pedestrian" main character, not "the only good one" at all.
Sam is the son of a Lord, and Davos, yeah he was from humble origin but actually the right hand of a Lord.
lol I read AFFC the day it was released. I expect to die without having finished this series.
I'm a book nerd and I'm trying to avoid show spoilers for the next 8 years, so I'm not going to read any of the comments but you and me can talk.
I love the little bits of flair. The book derives a lot of its character from small things.
Like the point of a scene is two character forming a pact, but it takes place over a dinner table. So he describes the actual menu items "buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches". A saffron and peach sauce. Fucking awesome.
And they won't talk about 'storming' the castle. They'll talk about 'investing' it.
I'm mad that they made a spoiler into a meme. The image macro of dany burning storm's landing. Why would people do this?
edit: king's landing, not storms landing
I avoid the show as much as possible but word gets around. I know the finale was a complete abortion for example. The books take such a long time that I'm not even anticipating them anymore. So I have an itch to watch the show just to see how badly it ends up. I watched the first season or two because it came out way later. It was very cool.
That's the thing about taking so long between books. I kind of forget that I care.
S5-6 have some amazing stuff mixed in with confusing gear. Also last times GRRM material is adapted. S7 if you're dedicated or interested. S8 if you're desperate.
It wasn't just the finale, narratively the show fell apart at the end of season 4, which equates to the end of ASoS. Even then there were parts of the earlier seasons that went a bit off the rails. I just pretend that the show got cancelled after season 4 because those are still worth seeing and the rest was some fevered nightmare I had.
After the show I don't know how you can conceivably make that evil Dany arc work. Her lessons in Meereen show that creating a regime change takes time and negotiation (after the conquest of course) and that violence will always affect the masses. I also enjoy GRRM's message of 'you are not your family' despite the world around you believing it so.
there's analysis long preceding the show that predicted that specific event and laid out Dany's path there. the core of the theory is that she walks out of Mereen believing it to be a repudiation of conciliation and compromise and embraces fire and blood as her birthright instead. I'm very certain it will be better done in the books (if they're ever written - I doubt that) but it's extremely likely that this is what will happen.
yeah I also read the theory Dany gets killed by Lightbringer/Jon a couple of years before S8. Such a disappointment.
I love the little bits of flair. The book derives a lot of its character from small things.
GRRM created a Knight with a Star insignia just to get ripped apart by a Giant. GRRM is a big Football fan so that was a reference to the Giants beating the Dallas Cowboys.
I love ASOIAF - I must admit, I only discovered it during the first season of game of thrones, but I quickly read all the books (DWD came out just as that show started I believe). I actually stopped watching game of thrones when it overtook the books and from everything I hear I made the right choice, lol.
I’m not convinced he’s ever gonna finish the series :(
Honestly lol, reading some of these comments has me dissociating. I do like the books within reason but it’s centrist fiction. Gurm was a Biden head in 2019 and when you read into his autobiographical portrayals it shows
centrist fiction. Gurm was a Biden head in 2019
The artist is dead, long live the art! Kipling's stories for children are beautiful, even though he was a racist/imperialist/militarist. Lots of artists are imperfect people that nevertheless produce good art.
The exception I'd say is a living artist who has abhorrent views and you'd support them by buying their stuff. That's fair. And if support for Biden makes someone dead to you - boycott away. But GRRM is no Orson Scott Card.
ASOIAF has lots of things to criticize from a socialist perspective. For example, his fantasy world has a lot more Whites and a lot fewer Blacks than our world (there are presumably a lot of Asians, but they live too far away to matter) - though most fantasy universes are even more White. But I don't think it preaches some evil centrist doctrine at its core. Tolkien's work has a more conservative philosophy ingrained.
Fair point. I enjoy the books, and I think the show kind of soured me to the series, which probably shouldn’t be the case.
I really don’t see the series ever being finished though so the show ending is what we’ll be left with.
Eh. One of the key messages of the books is that war sucks, all nobles are equally bad for the people except when they're doing nothing or being literally ineffective (and even then their taxes can be bad), and only by organising and killing the nobles can the people have their voices heard. Not only do the main books say this, it's also a recurring theme in the history and worldbuilding books. Sucks that the means to do so is a shitty oppressive expy of the Catholic Church, but at least the Sparrows are coming for the "Pope" too.
That’s fair. My experience with the books was def more positive than the show and I think my views have been tainted unfairly. I doubt I’ll read them again but it would probably be different to revisit since my political views have changed since the last time.
well, waiting for book six i guess!
please georgie don't kick it before at least Winds of Winter is finished
