Seems like this is really what it comes down to. The idea of helping less fortunate people appeals to them, as long as it doesn't materially affect their lives in anyway whatsoever.
You could get someone to agree with you on all of the ways socialism can help the less fortunate and vulnerable - but if that would require them to live in a more modest house or apartment, take public transportation, and give up some luxury consumer goods -- no can do, Jack.
Is there any way to even fix this? How can you make people realize they'd still be happier and better off because they'd be living in a more communal society that actually valued human life, they just might not be able to buy a new iphone every year.
I think that one thread where OP made the case that it's easier to reach chuds than it is libs was spot on. I live in the rural south. Lots of well off libs that have too much invested in the status quo, lots of old money chuds too but also a fuck ton of disenfranchised poor that have been conditioned to misdirect their anger at the "others" or whatever boogeyman is in the news.
I've worked a fuck ton of jobs up from digging up tree stumps to office IT work. The people nose deep in the shit were way easier to convert than the ones in the more comfy jobs. Libs would complain about the republicans or some outrage piece in the news but when I'd suggest an alternative they'd quickly dismiss it and say the solution was to vote blue. The folks at the "lower" jobs were more receptive to alternate ideas as long as I didn't let any scary communist terms slip in. I think the left's future is on converting the rural working class. I kind of think libs are a lost cause. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
I'm not sure about this from a strategic perspective though, I don't know if we can afford to completely discount every lib as a lost cause. I agree that the rural working class is likely more easily radicalized, but there are still plenty of working class liberals (especially millennials) that as you mentioned, have misplaced trust in institutions (that I would argue continues to be eroded away by the realities of material conditions) but have been subject to so much anti-communist propaganda that they legitimately don't believe it would be a good alternative.
Yes, there are those brunch-obsessed liberals that only care about themselves, and it's fair to write them off, but even while working in my most white collar office jobs I've encountered plenty of people that are struggling and I would say are firmly working class, they would absolutely benefit from socialism, but don't see it as a viable alternative, and I think that's the challenge we have.
I was listening to the Red Menace Podcast on Lenin's "What Is To Be Done?" and something they mentioned that I found very true is that most people aren't as politically active as we are, and honestly don't have a desire to be, and that's okay -- that's why we need a Vanguard Party, so the people that want to be incredibly involved in organizing, teaching, leading, and fighting can be leaders in the party, and those that want to support it but can't or don't want to be as involved can be members of the party and offer support in whatever ways they can. We're just so far away from this step right now, and I wish I knew how to get us there.
Are you sure they want things to change? Libs believe in the status quo. They've spent the last 4 years arguing with us that all we have to do is vote Trump out and then things can go back to normal for western democracy. Most libs can't relate to us cause they come from a middle class background. When we talk about things like healthcare and police brutality, they can't relate cause they don't know that struggle.
I have no idea why you people seriously think these people are ever going to radicalize to the left. You should be talking to working class people if you want to radicalize anyone. Your co-workers and yes, even the reactionary people you know on Facebook are more willing to listen to change than some smug assholes living in the comfort of a middle class household and can't relate to any real struggles.
I agree with this. Even working class libs will see the system as a necessary evil because they cannot imagine changing it radically in anyway.
The libs will die thinking they tried their best when they tried absolutely nothing at all. It's best to ignore liberals entirely when they speak because none of it matters. None of these people have power and none of them want to create a party where they have power. It's easier to simply give someone else all the responsibility, and therefore blame, for the necessary imperialism that keeps their standard of living.
Seriously, just shame these people when they talk. Don't bother debating them, bc as earnest as they feel their material interests remain their highest priority. Otherwise they'd just be commies already. There are millions of people out there who will be way more open-minded about economics than libs who have mainlined MSDNC content all day for decades
People have been taught the idea that things are only worth having if someone else doesn't have it. That human well-being in a society somehow becks to the "law" of supply and demand. This is the capitalist world view.
When you tell them you want to give marginalized and poor people the same opportunities and resources that everyone else does, this citizen indoctrinated by capitalism will hear it as you wanting to lessen the the value of the "commodities" that make up a basic decent life. To them, making more people happy and secure means that their own happiness and securities are now worth less.
My theory for American politics is that liberals act on this subconsciously, while republicans act on it actively.
Liberals have internalized this into a cognitive dissonance between "progressive" ideals while keeping their mind and solution solving skills under the capitalist ideologies.
Each and every time a social issue comes up, the liberal brain needs to somehow rectify it to not be an issue of capital. It creates layers and layers that have to be cut through one at a time.
Racist police force? But not all cops! Increasingly fascist government? Gross he looks like a dang Cheeto! Unfathomable economic inequality? The REPUBLICANS are stealing your taxes!
There's infinite excuses their brain's use to ignore systemic issues over and over while still feeling like the moral winner.
It's way more complicated than republicans who are just shouting talking points and accepting them at face value. You can actually prove stuff to them. At least ones that aren't fully gone into the fascistic cult stuff.
Liberals need like a full on cognitive rework to get past that many layers of propaganda.
