• Amorphous [any]
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          4 years ago

          Animals are not objects to be used for your convenience

          • EthicalHumanMeat [he/him]
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            4 years ago

            I mean I can understand that position if you're treating the animal poorly, but is using an animal for your convenience necessarily wrong?

            Like, if someone has a horse and rides it around but treats it well and with respect, is there actually a problem?

              • EthicalHumanMeat [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                Thanks for the article. It was interesting and does point out a lot of problems but I don't think it makes a satisfying enough case for all horse riding being a problem.

                Most of it hinges on two pieces: the first discusses alterations in the spinal processes (the narrow projections on top) of horses' back vertebrae. The article states,

                In 2007, Matilda Homer and colleagues conducted a study with 295 horses who were considered physically sound before the examination. In this study, x-rays revealed that 91.5% of the horses were diagnosed with alteration on the spinal processes. Almost always, the spinal processes of the caudal saddle position were affected. The most frequent results were diminished internal spaces of spinal processes, including changes of the bone structure of the spinal processes [1].

                With the implication that this constitutes spinal damage.

                But that's not what the study concludes. From the abstract:

                In spite of considerable x-ray results some horses show no clinical discomfort. On the other hand alterations on the spinal processes can cause pain and involve problems when riding the horse or make a horse even unridable. In order to being better equipped to assess the x-ray results on the spinal processes, a retrospective study was performed by way of analysis of spinal processes -x-rays of 295 clinically back sound warmblood horses.

                [...]

                X-ray alterations thus are frequent even among clinically back healthy horses. If alterations occur almost always the spinal processes of the caudal saddle position are affected. Recent court decisions have ruled x-ray alterations not accompanied by clinical symptoms as not being material defects. Therefore it is worth discussing whether an x-ray exam as part of a general exam at the time of a purchase makes sense at all under these circumstances when x-rays are performed without a clinical suspicion of a dorsal ailment it would most probably be sufficient to perform a singular x-ray of the caudal saddle position allowing for radiation protection.

                While the spinal abnormalities, which to be clear are just deviations in shape from horses that aren't ridden, can cause pain, the authors do not assert that they always do or that they even constitute injuries.

                The other piece discusses bone fusion over a horse's lifespan in the context of horse racing and concludes that the commonly held assumption that horses are safe to ride once they look like their skeleton is mature is inaccurate, and that they should be ridden only once their skeleton has matured further:

                Just about everybody has heard of the horse’s “growth plates”, and commonly when I ask them, people tell me that the “growth plates” are somewhere around the horse’s knees (actually the ones people mean are located at the bottom of the radius-ulna bone just above the knee). This is what gives rise to the saying that, before riding the horse, it’s best to wait “until his knees close” (i.e., until the growth plates convert from cartilage to bone, fusing the epiphysis or bone-end to the diaphysis or bone-shaft). What people often don’t realize is that there is a “growth plate” on either end of every bone behind the skull, and in the case of some bones (like the pelvis or vertebrae, which have many “corners”) there are multiple growth plates.

                So do you then have to wait until all these growth plates convert to bone? No. But the longer you wait, the safer you’ll be. Owners and trainers need to realize there’s an easy-to-remember general schedule of fusion – and then make their decision as to when to ride the horse based on that rather than on the external appearance of the horse. For there are some breeds of horse – the Quarter Horse is the premier among these – which have been bred in such a manner as to look mature long before they actually are mature. This puts these horses in jeopardy from people who are either ignorant of the closure schedule, or more interested in their own schedule (for futurities or other competition) than they are in the welfare of the animal.

                Horse racing and other activities that pushes horses to their physical limits are clearly unethical and should be abolished. Bits, too, seem fucked up based on what the article described, but they don't cite any sources for that.

                But all that aside, even if we assume that, yes, it's always cruel to ride a horse (which I still don't totally buy), horses were just one example. My main point was that the idea that it's inherently wrong to use an animal for any purpose is absurd. If you can't accept that riding a horse can be ok, then substitute dogs or llamas.

                It's this line from the piece,

                Horses do not exist so we can ride them. Just because we can, and because we desire to, does not mean we have the right to. We do not have the right to exploit any non-human animal for anything.

                that doesn't make any sense to me. What does "exploit" mean here and what's inherently wrong about using an animal for a purpose?

                The emphasis on us lacking some natural right to use animals for "anything" is, like, classic liberal reasoning.

            • Amorphous [any]
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              4 years ago

              Riding a horse is treating it poorly. It's not a pleasant experience. And there's no way to do that respectfully.

              • EthicalHumanMeat [he/him]
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                4 years ago

                Do horses really have a problem with being ridden? I have no idea one way or the other.

                A better example might be chickens. They just kinda lay eggs on their own. Outside of factory farming conditions, which are obviously horrible, it seems to me that they could be treated kindly while also being used as a source of eggs. I don't see a problem there.

                Or oxen being used to pull plows in farming. It's hard work but I don't think it's necessarily causing them harm if they're not being pushed too hard, so I wouldn't say the farmers who use oxen are necessarily doing something wrong there.

                Like, I think the problems is with cruelty, not with just using animals for things on principle.

                • Amorphous [any]
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                  4 years ago

                  Do horses really have a problem with being ridden?

                  Yes, absolutely. Not only is it unpleasant for them, it also causes medical issues.

                  A better example might be chickens. They just kinda lay eggs on their own

                  The Red Junglefowl, the natural ancestor of the modern chicken, would lay a handful of eggs per year. Modern farm-chickens are specifically bred to lay far more eggs than they should, which causes medical issues.

  • LangdonAlger [any]
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    4 years ago

    I love car enthusiast culture and car history; I have strong opinions on design and philosophy and can fix most things on my car. But if all cars were banned tomorrow, I'd be okay with it

  • GrouchyGrouse [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    I fuckin' hate car culture so much. I hate it more than the cars. And I hate cars.

    • skeletorsass [she/her]
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      4 years ago

      Car culture is always a dick measuring contest.

      High speed rail is egalitarian because everyone's traindick can be 16 cars long.

    • WhatDoYouMeanPodcast [comrade/them]
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      4 years ago

      I have never heard people speak of cars in a way other than specs and (dis)approval of the specs.

      6 cylinder go brrrrrr, but 4 cylinder bad. I like brand, but Japan brand bad. You know who makes fast cars? Italy. You know who makes sturdy car? Braaaaaaaaaaand

    • Baader [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      If you wouldn't have to numb your head because you live in a hellworld, you prolly would find something better than race cars. Seriously, how can blowing carbon in the atmosphere still be considered a sport?

  • Kestrel [comrade/them]
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    4 years ago

    Fuck this hellish sprawling landscape built by capitalism literally for cars and only cars. Because who would ever need to walk any where, right?

  • VILenin [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    Just learned about highways. Damn that shit's ugly

  • Shmyt [he/him,any]
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    4 years ago

    Yeah, seemed like a dumb movie. Like why do they talk, do they have souls or brains? What mechanical part is that housed in? Are they still the same being if that part is placed into a different body? How many car parts can you replace before its a different being or different car or does that distinction matter? Too many questions. Fuck cars.

  • akio [none/use name]
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    4 years ago

    I have never owned a car I get around by bicycle or public transport but I still love those shows where they restore an old car to make it run very well.

    • grilledSoldier [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      Imo restoring old cars or old cars overall are somewhat different, as they are a historical relic too. Thus preserving them is, in my mind, not really a problem. Especially because there are not many around anymore.

  • GreatBearShark [he/him]
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    4 years ago

    fuck the koch brothers, fuck america's obsession with cars, fuck our crumbling, embarrassing infrastructure with almost zero public transit