This thread is intended to clear up any misgivings, founded or not, about the emergent vaccine(s) for the novel coronavirus.
As a lay, I will be relegating this informative task to those who are more qualified, including @carljungblood @Pezevenk @TheOneTrueChapo @ClimateChangeAnxiety @mine and any other knowledgeable persons on this topic. Feel free to comment here. This post will be edited to add quotes from the informed folks who come by.
This will not be a by-and-large discussion on the vampiric American pharmaceutical industry. Whether or not a medicine works is determined by the professionals who develop, test, and distribute them, not by the robber baron that owns it all.
- Now for Knowledge -
Here is a link on some frequently asked questions, answered by a science communcator. (submitted by u/Gay_Wrath)
This vaccine is meant to reduce the severity of the virus and lower the death rate, not to prevent its spread. Is there a precedent for this strategy?
from u/carljungblood
There are promising hints for preventing asymptomatic spread
The FDA's 54-page report is a more detailed analysis of data that weren't in Moderna's initial efficacy findings , which it released on Nov 16. The FDA's Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) meets on Dec 17 . The FDA typically accepts the recommendations of its advisory committee.
According to the new documents, the vaccine was effective against severe disease; of 30 people with severe infections, none were in the group that received the vaccine. Like the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, the one from Moderna shows protection across a range of groups, including people of color, different ages, and both sexes. And similarly, temporary side effects were common, including fatigue, headaches, muscle aches, and injection-site tenderness.
However, additional data from Moderna suggest the vaccine may protect against asymptomatic infections, a key consideration in a vaccine's usefulness for preventing the spread of the virus to others.
In layman's terms, it's hard to tell at this point because there's no way to determine whether antibodies in a patient are from the vaccine or the virus. I assume they will be collecting this data retrospectively between the control and vaccine groups, but in short - hints are there that it stops asymptomatic spread, but more statistical power/retrospective analysis will be required to say for sure.
Was the quick turnaround on the vaccine a result of bureaucratic shortcuts or scientific ones? In other words, is the science any less sound than a typical vaccine?
from u/carljungblood
I would recommend reading this article from the FDA to understand emergency use authorization. Basically, yes, emergency use means faster timelines. This is the second time emergency use has been implemented for a vaccine, the first being the most recent Ebola vaccine. This Lancet article compares the two instances.
Since vaccine distribution is staggered, will there be new pressures for COVID-19 to mutate due to the large unvaccinated population?
from u/carljungblood
This is a legitimate concern. External pressures could put pressure on the virus to mutate. However, this has not yet been observed for SARS-CoV2. No vaccine rollout is yet capable of dealing with this issue however. Vaccination plus physical restrictions on travel, along with monitoring of viral evolution would be the only way. Which is kinda what’s going on anyway.
How concerning or abnormal are the reports of severe allergic reactions to the COVID vaccines? Are they more or less common than allergic reactions to the flu vaccine?
from u/carljungblood
Allergies are always observed with vaccinations. In the flu vaccine, it’s usually due to the fact that some are produced in eggs. For COVID, it’s likely due to the solubilizing/stabilizing agent polyethylene glycol (PEG) but it’s hard to say yet with such few instances of allergy. The FDA is actively aware of this, but the rates are currently not above what would be observed by more traditional vaccines like MMR.
Is there any indication that these vaccines will work after four months?
from u/carljungblood
The coronavirus (SARS CoV-2 at least) mutates very slowly. If mutation rates are geographical entities, SARS-CoV-2 is the US, flu is the world, and HIV is the solar system. Your understanding is correct, but it’s much more of a problem for other viruses. More realistically, another separate coronavirus will emerge (like SARS or MERS) rather than this one mutating to escape control. Famous last words though, as vaccination will definitely apply pressure on the virus to adopt mutations. But again, it’s not in the nature of this type of virus.
Which companies (or did they all) produce mRNA vaccines? I know this is generally seen as the “first” time we’ve been able to produce a vaccine this way and that has been part of the reason for such a quick production?
from u/carljungblood
These will be the first FDA approved RNA vaccines, but the tech has been around for a while. RNA is one of the most labile, transient biomolecules by design. It’s meant to transcribe the gene from DNA to protein, in basically a “burn after reading” time frame. Residual RNA is quickly digested by enzymes to avoid old messages signaling where they shouldn’t. The tech has been around for decades, but due to the instability compared to protein vaccines, it’s been tough to implement logistically. These problems are still relevant based on the -20 to -80 C storage requirements for Moderna and Pfizer respectively, however due to chemical modifications to the RNA, RNA products are more stable than ever. RNA has an advantage to traditional vaccines because it’s much cheaper and simpler to make than proteins. It also requires less adjuvanticity (vaccine components to rile the immune response like alum) based on it’s own inherent properties. RNA is easier to produce on large scales than proteins, and a smaller input yields a larger immune response than protein. All reasons for it’s fast implementation, you basically just need the genetic code of your target, design the RNA, plug it into your delivery system and go. The idea is that it will be a better base for delivering vaccines in the past, which have always been more ad hoc experiences.
I think calling all concerns about these vaccines "diet anti-vaxx" is pretty insulting. If you've never experienced doctors giving zero shits about your health and ignoring your experiences and problems and just generally being incompetent and dangerous then you should probably slow down and remember that stuff STILL HAPPENS to a shitload of people.
Anti-vax sentiments have a very long history. It's just a bit of cultural background static that people may tune into after a shitty doctor visit. It's surprisingly politically neutral, too.
I don't think anyone here is doing that kind of dumbass jenny mccarthy anti-vax bullshit. People are worried that the race for profit and the pressure of the virus at large is causing processes to be altered in ways that undermine safety, especially for marginalized groups. Because one thing we're seeing very clearly is that the medical community is rife with processes that are obviously biased toward white cisgender people and that if we can't even get people to acknowledge basic, well studied biases then how are we going to get safety vetting for a very new kind of vaccine technology and a vaccine that has undergone less testing than usual.
I mean just from a personal perspective I'm worried about people with autoimmune disorders not responding the same/as safely in this particular instance.
On the 3rd point, I can't tell exactly because Pfizer definitely has their publicists all over their Wikipedia page talking about emissions reductions and shit. They're that kind of evil.
edit: they seem pretty run-of-the-mill evil, they attempted to blackmail a Nigerian regulator and are/were involved in price fixing conspiracies, and sold defective heart valves that killed about 500 people, and other things. It's the second largest pharma company in the world after all.
Any comprehensive list? I've got a friend who stans drug companies and I would like to have more ammunition to make fun of him with.
On point 1, most of the vaccines that are now coming to the market were developed within like a week or two of the genetic sequence of covid-19 being made public in January. The science of vaccine development isn't less sound, and often vaccine development itself is very quick. What takes a long time is testing to make sure the vaccine is safe, which is definitely being fast tracked. That said, we also don't do clinical trials of drugs with nearly as big a scale as we've done with the covid-19 vaccines, so that helps offset some of the rushed nature of safety testing. There's also the point that the side effects of the vaccine long term, even though they haven't been observed, are almost certainly less awful than getting covid-19, so from a "all things considered" perspective the vaccines are still a good deal. I know I'll be taking it first chance I get.
For the first one, yes the science is less sound.
The novel Coronavirus has been identified for 11 months. The Pfizer vaccine was in development for 8 months. Trials started 6 months ago.
The trial period for vaccines are meant to observe the effectiveness of the vaccine. Right now, scientists only been able to observe the effects of the COVID over a 6-month period. The trial period for vaccines generally last much longer.
The rVSV-ZEBOV vaccine began trials on humans in October 2014. The vaccine was approved for medical use in the US late 2019. This vaccine was approved at an elevated pace because the Ebola epidemic. Before this vaccine was approved, scientists could observe the effects of the vaccine over a four-year window.
I'm not qualified to say what these medium- and long-term effects of the COVID vaccine may be. I'm just commenting to say that there are scientific reasons that vaccine trials usually take several years.
My question is about the staggering release of the vaccine.
There does not seem to be a plan to vaccinate even a majority of Americans. And yet, we are already rolling out vaccinations here.
If we have a vaccinated population and an unvaccinated population, won't new strains continue to mutate in the unvaccinated population? How will that undermine the progress we have made on the current vaccine?
Unrelated, but i found this at the end of one of the FDA reports and thought it was funny
As of December 6, 2020, there were 3 SAEs reported in the vaccine group [...] a 72-year-old participant with arrhythmia after being struck by lightning 28 days after vaccination
tfw you get a vaccine but then get literally struck by lightning
TFW mRNA vaccines bring down the wrath of Zeus for meddling in the primal forces of nature.
It's literally a requirement to report all adverse effects on people in the study. If there was a massive increase in car accidents for the vaccine group it might speak to something larger and need to be investigated. But getting struck by lightning probably isn't related.
Is it true that a shitload of king crabs had to be killed for the vaccine?
they're horseshoe crabs, and they are always put at risk in the culturing of vaccines unfortunately :(
Fuck. Stupid delete button.
Short version: what's the deal with the "severe allergic" reactions? I've had an anaphylactic reaction to something once in my life (unknown cause, but probably plant related), self treated with Benadryl, I was fine.
Do we know what element is causing it? I've had all my vaccines, including flu, never had a reaction to any of those.
Well, if it's PG, I'm good. Used to vape with no issues.
Thanks!
There have been some problematic speculations about Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccines that have been passed up as insight in these here parts.
You all are really going to need to get over yourselves if you actually want to convincingly address concerns as opposed to just making yourselves feel smart and clever.
These are complex issues that most people don't encounter in their daily lives, and they should absolutely not feel bad for not knowing how to navigate them totally correctly. If they've have concerns, those concerns should be treated as good faith and addressed patiently without prejudgment.
This shouldn't be looked at as the opportunity to drop the STEM equivalent of a "yikes" on people.
not sure if pings work if it's in a post so im going to @carljungblood @Pezevenk @TheOneTrueChapo @ClimateChangeAnxiety @mine
edit: howdy I made a thread to hopefully definitively end the diet anti-vax stuff that has been creeping around
Another question since it has came up before on this site -
what's the deal with the pharmaceutical CEO saying he's going to wait to take the vaccine after front-line workers? Is this just a PR stunt? Has anything like this happened in the past?
Why are peoples skepticism about Russias vaccine more valid than pfizer's or moderns considering they're both being released around the same time? I'm nervous about the vaccine because of the amount of legitimate skepticism people have of Russias vaccine - and it seems to me everything they have to say about Russias applies to Moderna and Pfizer.
Russia has been collaborating with AstraZeneca and other not-for-profit vaccines. Pfizer and Moderna have been taking a "go at it alone" strategy in order to protect profitable trade secrets.
I'm not particularly skeptical of the vaccines, but I've been more sus'd out by Pfizer and Moderna than Russia so far.
Is Pfizer and Moderna cooperating with vaccines which function similarly to their own? I would be surprised, since they both are interested in monopoly profits.
Also, thanks for your patience in this thread. Capitalism has decimated peoples' trust in medicine, and the responsibility to mend that trust is unduly put on people like you.
No I havent noticed it either on Chapo (skepticism over russias vaccine is rampant everywhere else online obviosuly), this was more a general thing for me. I called into a local radio thing when they had some doctors on to talk about the covid vaccine and they screened me out when I said that's what I wanted to ask. Still curious and cha cha is probably one of the few places you could ask and get a straight answer.
Which companies (or did they all) produce mRNA vaccines? I know this is generally seen as the "first" time we've been able to produce a vaccine this way and that has been part of the reason for such a quick production?
a small time health company "Moderna" also made an mRNA COVID vaccine that's very similar in every measure except storage link archive link
Thanks! So how much of the quickness in production/approval is from it being an RNA vaccine vs emergency approval procedures?
