As others have pointed out, the nation-state is inherently imperialist, but as someone who stans China pretty hard but still has doubts about their rule over Tibet/Xinjiang, I get how that’s not the most satisfying answer
Especially as a Native American it can sometimes be frustrating to see concerns about self-determination for minorities in China being written off because “China’s controlled them for x number of years,” as if conquering a territory suddenly becomes okay after x number of years holding the territory
But the problem is, what exactly do you want China to do about it? Should they just cede control over two of their largest, most strategically-important provinces over to the capitalist world just to prove to Western leftists that they actually are committed to anti-imperialism? Right now, China’s rise to power is literally the only thing standing in the way of Western imperialist hegemony, and them self-sabotaging in the name of doing the right thing (and hey maybe it is the right thing idk) will be a massive setback to the project of anti-imperialism. Meaning if we consider self-determination for all peoples to be a long term anti-imperialist goal, then China giving up control of Tibet and Xinjiang would, ironically, be a net loss of progress toward that goal
Put another way, my people, or any other Native tribe, will not and cannot have self-determination until the American empire falls, but that won’t happen anytime soon if every socialist power just gives up half its territory for the sake of appeasing the sensibilities of Western leftists. It’s a weird, shitty situation, but I understand why China does what they do, it’s called critical support for a reason
You put this exactly how I was trying to have it sound. I fucking hate the idea of a state and want them gone because as we can see, they are one of the highest forms of oppression.
Unfortunately, people who do control a state will simply use theirs to rule over you until these systems of oppression are addressed and eliminated. That’s why I’m a ML despite my deep hatred for a state
I would only add that the problem is not just "what do they want china to do about it?" But also, "what are western socialists supposed to do about it?".
The anti-china agitation blowing up reddit and twitter has no effect on CPC's decision making whatsoever. Just as in the first red scare, it is a stick to displine and divide leftists in the West. The only thing it accomplishes is to absolve the our empire's crimes by forcing critics to answer for the supposed crimes of an empire on the other side of the world.
Imperialism is a policy or ideology of extending the rule over peoples and other countries, for extending political and economic access, power and control, through employing hard power especially military force, but also soft power.
Uighurs are the peoples, CCP are the rulers that you inexplicably stan.
True and not true. Xinjiang has been a contested region for going on 1500 years or so. It was decisively controlled by the Qing dynasty (who were foreign rulers and not Han Chinese) for a few hundred years until the Republican era, when it became its own sovereign state, just like Tibet, until the Communists re-conquered it in 1949. It was not "China" as such when the CCP came into power.
The thing is, "China" has always been a continuous civilization, never a continuous state. To say that Uighurs were "Chinese" in the Qing dynasty is roughly equivalent to saying Polish people were once Chinese because they were part of Pax Mongolia, which of course had its capital in Beijing.
I suppose you think that the CPC "conquered" Beijing too. The communists didn't "conquer" shit, the revolution and subsequent liberation spread to those areas just as it had the rest of China.
I guess if we're going to be particular about our terms it was ultimately neither conquered nor liberated but more or less passed over to the CCP by the Soviets
Serious question: Are you pro-Soviet? If so, why did the state have to be liberated from Soviet backing?
The same way the UK ruling over Wales isn’t imperialism or how the US existing at all isn’t imperialism or how Turkey ruling over the Kurds isn't imperialism or how the Spanish ruling over the Catalonia’s isn’t imperialism. They both just are and aren’t imperialism depending on what definition you use.
There’s no hard line between what is and isn’t imperialism, and the modern idea of a state is inherently imperialist if your definition is ruling over people who don’t want to be ruled over.
If you can provide an indisputable definition of imperialism then maybe we can get somewhere.
Yeah, all nations are imperialists. So till we get rid of nations as a whole, we need a better way of differentiating between, say, Alberta wanting to exit Canada and Catalonia seeking independence from Spain.
how the US existing at all isn’t imperialism or how Turkey ruling over the Kurds isn’t imperialism or how the Spanish ruling over the Catalonia’s isn’t imperialism
They’re all imperialism lol the nation state is a fuck. I actually said they’re all imperialism literally in my comment which is why I picked extremely obvious examples
I mean East Turkestan was seized in a period of imperial expansion and ruled from Beijing as a hinterland. Doesn't that mean that Mao should have released control of it? Since he didn't, doesn't that mean the CCP rules over an imperial possession? Making all this shit about stanning China completely ridiculous and hypocritical?
tbf we gotta balkanize the whole world. but i'm not gonna say balkanizing china is better or more preferable or should be done before balkanizing the us and shit.
Imperialism isn't "when a government controls an area." What matters is that something is integrated into the main political system and not just ruled from afar and extracted from. And as far as I know, people in Xinjiang have the same voting rights as everyone else.
Do you have, for example, polling data showing that the majority of the region wants to be autonomous or anything like that?
this is some ridiculous debatebro shit. no I don't have reliable polling data showing how many uighurs want to be autonomous. where the fuck would someone get that?
East Turkestan is not a historical term for the region used by its inhabitants until the 1900s where two "East Turkestan Republics" popped up for a few years and did ethnic and religious cleansings, its an islamic separatist term and a fucking yikes look.
The lane where we dont oppress ethnic/religious minorities and conquer their land? Sure, thanks. Stay in yours fucker, far away from any left movement.
honestly, it's because the leftist internet is full of white kids who have no idea what it's like non-western authoritarian country. they have zero experience with the world at large and so they just default to "anything that is anti-west is good". they have no immunity to the Asian brand of hierarchical authoritarianism and it quickly fills the vacuum left by abandoning lib shit.
It's not idpol to point out that the experience of a white person in Asia is not the same as that of an Asian person in Asia. Nor is it idpol to point out that white people in Asia benefit from white supremacy.
Living in a place for a long time doesn't make you immune from having shit takes, otherwise white people who live in Australia can't possibly have shit takes about Aboriginal peoples, white people in the US can't have shit takes about black people or native Americans, etc, etc.
I think this is literallty it, its just blowing my mind that they stan for evil so readily, and deny reality about the camps much like trumper morons have been about Q and the Deep State and the like. And in this case they're literally SUPPORTING lib shit with this bs "we're empowering women by sterilizing them in concentration camps" monstrosity of a tweet
the dumbest thing I've ever seen on this website was some user stanning the murderous, authoritarian Thai king because some nutjob article linked a protester to an NED grant
I think it's just hard to accept that people in power lie even if they aren't white neoliberals.
Sterilization is not mentioned lmao, the wording is dogshit but they are talking about how when standards of living are raised women can be more than "baby making machines", which is on one hand a really yikesy term to use but one that mainstream media like the BBC has used for places like Iran anyways.
Actually I should clarify, sterilization is only mentioned in the article to say that forced sterilization had no part of it and that its personal decisions to use contraceptives or surgery to deal with this just like in any country.
Testimonies are not evidence, otherwise you're basically repeating the Iraq war buildup, your second link is not only entirely testimonies again but repeat the recycled falun gong claim of organ harvesting which has never had evidence supporting it, it also links to Radio Free Asia like come the fuck on.
This is all on the fucking level of the Naziriyah testimony and testimonies like that, they can never just fucking coalesce into objective fact and as of yet there are not objective facts to back up the outlandish fucking claims that mirror perfectly the US strategy for agitating the population and manufacturing consent.
can somebody please explain to me in good faith how this is not imperialism
As others have pointed out, the nation-state is inherently imperialist, but as someone who stans China pretty hard but still has doubts about their rule over Tibet/Xinjiang, I get how that’s not the most satisfying answer
Especially as a Native American it can sometimes be frustrating to see concerns about self-determination for minorities in China being written off because “China’s controlled them for x number of years,” as if conquering a territory suddenly becomes okay after x number of years holding the territory
But the problem is, what exactly do you want China to do about it? Should they just cede control over two of their largest, most strategically-important provinces over to the capitalist world just to prove to Western leftists that they actually are committed to anti-imperialism? Right now, China’s rise to power is literally the only thing standing in the way of Western imperialist hegemony, and them self-sabotaging in the name of doing the right thing (and hey maybe it is the right thing idk) will be a massive setback to the project of anti-imperialism. Meaning if we consider self-determination for all peoples to be a long term anti-imperialist goal, then China giving up control of Tibet and Xinjiang would, ironically, be a net loss of progress toward that goal
Put another way, my people, or any other Native tribe, will not and cannot have self-determination until the American empire falls, but that won’t happen anytime soon if every socialist power just gives up half its territory for the sake of appeasing the sensibilities of Western leftists. It’s a weird, shitty situation, but I understand why China does what they do, it’s called critical support for a reason
deleted by creator
You put this exactly how I was trying to have it sound. I fucking hate the idea of a state and want them gone because as we can see, they are one of the highest forms of oppression.
Unfortunately, people who do control a state will simply use theirs to rule over you until these systems of oppression are addressed and eliminated. That’s why I’m a ML despite my deep hatred for a state
:gold-communist:
You said it better than I could.
I would only add that the problem is not just "what do they want china to do about it?" But also, "what are western socialists supposed to do about it?".
The anti-china agitation blowing up reddit and twitter has no effect on CPC's decision making whatsoever. Just as in the first red scare, it is a stick to displine and divide leftists in the West. The only thing it accomplishes is to absolve the our empire's crimes by forcing critics to answer for the supposed crimes of an empire on the other side of the world.
deleted by creator
Uighurs are the peoples, CCP are the rulers that you inexplicably stan.
https://historicly.substack.com/p/demystifying-xinjiang-and-the-uighers
uighurs live very far away from Beijing, aren't chinese and don't want to be part of china
deleted by creator
True and not true. Xinjiang has been a contested region for going on 1500 years or so. It was decisively controlled by the Qing dynasty (who were foreign rulers and not Han Chinese) for a few hundred years until the Republican era, when it became its own sovereign state, just like Tibet, until the Communists re-conquered it in 1949. It was not "China" as such when the CCP came into power.
The thing is, "China" has always been a continuous civilization, never a continuous state. To say that Uighurs were "Chinese" in the Qing dynasty is roughly equivalent to saying Polish people were once Chinese because they were part of Pax Mongolia, which of course had its capital in Beijing.
I suppose you think that the CPC "conquered" Beijing too. The communists didn't "conquer" shit, the revolution and subsequent liberation spread to those areas just as it had the rest of China.
I guess if we're going to be particular about our terms it was ultimately neither conquered nor liberated but more or less passed over to the CCP by the Soviets
Serious question: Are you pro-Soviet? If so, why did the state have to be liberated from Soviet backing?
how are uighurs chinese?
edit: if uighurs are already chinese then what are they being "reeducated" from?
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Isn't that like asking if Cherokees are American?
look how that fucking turned out.
Yeah but you're comparing two different governments. Obv what the US did to Cherokees was bad. But the essence of the question is the same, or not?
uh, imperialism is bad no matter which government does it. what the fuck website am I on?
deleted by creator
Imperialism is when anyone is apart of a country that isn't ran by people that look and speak exactly like them.
Class-unity? Internationalism? True leftists only support ethnostates.
The same way the UK ruling over Wales isn’t imperialism or how the US existing at all isn’t imperialism or how Turkey ruling over the Kurds isn't imperialism or how the Spanish ruling over the Catalonia’s isn’t imperialism. They both just are and aren’t imperialism depending on what definition you use.
There’s no hard line between what is and isn’t imperialism, and the modern idea of a state is inherently imperialist if your definition is ruling over people who don’t want to be ruled over.
If you can provide an indisputable definition of imperialism then maybe we can get somewhere.
Yeah, all nations are imperialists. So till we get rid of nations as a whole, we need a better way of differentiating between, say, Alberta wanting to exit Canada and Catalonia seeking independence from Spain.
Exactly my point. They’re all technically imperialism because that’s how states work
Bruh
They’re all imperialism lol the nation state is a fuck. I actually said they’re all imperialism literally in my comment which is why I picked extremely obvious examples
oh sorry
No problem
deleted by creator
since the Qing dynasty, a literal empire
deleted by creator
did he give back all the imperial possessions?
deleted by creator
I mean East Turkestan was seized in a period of imperial expansion and ruled from Beijing as a hinterland. Doesn't that mean that Mao should have released control of it? Since he didn't, doesn't that mean the CCP rules over an imperial possession? Making all this shit about stanning China completely ridiculous and hypocritical?
You.... Want to balkanise China?
tbf we gotta balkanize the whole world. but i'm not gonna say balkanizing china is better or more preferable or should be done before balkanizing the us and shit.
No, it means that he should have done his best to institute class consciousness and develop socialism in the territory, which is what he did.
Imperialism isn't "when a government controls an area." What matters is that something is integrated into the main political system and not just ruled from afar and extracted from. And as far as I know, people in Xinjiang have the same voting rights as everyone else.
deleted by creator
this is some ridiculous debatebro shit. no I don't have reliable polling data showing how many uighurs want to be autonomous. where the fuck would someone get that?
East Turkestan is not a historical term for the region used by its inhabitants until the 1900s where two "East Turkestan Republics" popped up for a few years and did ethnic and religious cleansings, its an islamic separatist term and a fucking yikes look.
So is racism, sexism, transphobia, etc and the US, how is this a defense?
deleted by creator
The lane where we dont oppress ethnic/religious minorities and conquer their land? Sure, thanks. Stay in yours fucker, far away from any left movement.
Cuz they said some lib shit to justify it, I guess. Why are leftists so fucking blind on this topic
honestly, it's because the leftist internet is full of white kids who have no idea what it's like non-western authoritarian country. they have zero experience with the world at large and so they just default to "anything that is anti-west is good". they have no immunity to the Asian brand of hierarchical authoritarianism and it quickly fills the vacuum left by abandoning lib shit.
Orientalism, in MY leftist community?
Ahh fuck it, joke's on me for expecting better.
orientalism is when you live in asia your whole life and say something about how it works
I'm sure being the beneficiary of white imperialism gives you great credentials to talk down to us ignorant yellow folk.
four days ago you posted "To the neolibs, identity politics is just another arrow in an amoral quiver."
It's not idpol to point out that the experience of a white person in Asia is not the same as that of an Asian person in Asia. Nor is it idpol to point out that white people in Asia benefit from white supremacy.
Living in a place for a long time doesn't make you immune from having shit takes, otherwise white people who live in Australia can't possibly have shit takes about Aboriginal peoples, white people in the US can't have shit takes about black people or native Americans, etc, etc.
I grew up here, my wife is from here, I speak the language and 99% of the people I interact with are locals
like what the fuck do you want from me
I think he just said he was one of those yellow folk. So... pretty sure he'd know something about being one of those
No.
https://hexbear.net/post/70180/comment/733891
Also, you don't get to call anyone "those yellow folk".
deleted by creator
white dude in asia since I was a kid
deleted by creator
a hot part
deleted by creator
no
I think this is literallty it, its just blowing my mind that they stan for evil so readily, and deny reality about the camps much like trumper morons have been about Q and the Deep State and the like. And in this case they're literally SUPPORTING lib shit with this bs "we're empowering women by sterilizing them in concentration camps" monstrosity of a tweet
the dumbest thing I've ever seen on this website was some user stanning the murderous, authoritarian Thai king because some nutjob article linked a protester to an NED grant
I think it's just hard to accept that people in power lie even if they aren't white neoliberals.
Sterilization is not mentioned lmao, the wording is dogshit but they are talking about how when standards of living are raised women can be more than "baby making machines", which is on one hand a really yikesy term to use but one that mainstream media like the BBC has used for places like Iran anyways.
Actually I should clarify, sterilization is only mentioned in the article to say that forced sterilization had no part of it and that its personal decisions to use contraceptives or surgery to deal with this just like in any country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps#Testimonies_of_treatment
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-is-forcibly-sterilizing-uighur-women-and-giving-them-unwanted-abortions-in-a-mission-to-purge-the-muslim-minority-report-says/ar-BB166lWE
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china
https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c
Educate urself sweaty
Testimonies are not evidence, otherwise you're basically repeating the Iraq war buildup, your second link is not only entirely testimonies again but repeat the recycled falun gong claim of organ harvesting which has never had evidence supporting it, it also links to Radio Free Asia like come the fuck on.
This is all on the fucking level of the Naziriyah testimony and testimonies like that, they can never just fucking coalesce into objective fact and as of yet there are not objective facts to back up the outlandish fucking claims that mirror perfectly the US strategy for agitating the population and manufacturing consent.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator