I've been holding off on making this post because I didn't want to distract from the trans issues that have been front and center on this site recently or be accused of concern trolling or tone policing. But since those issues don't show any sign of being resolved any time soon, I'm just going ahead.
I don't want to be the cis equivalent of a white person who gets big mad about being called a mayo or whatever. But it seems to me that the intention behind the term "cissie" is that A. it creates an equivalent to the t-slur to turn around on cis people and B. is intended to trigger the toxic masculinity of cis dudes by essentially calling them "sissies".
Fortunately, I'm not very invested in being a "masculine" guy. Unfortunately, I had a lot of experience having my masculinity policed growing up for being too effeminate, not liking the things I was supposed to like, being too emotional, being "f*ggy", you name it. While I definitely don't think it's intentional on the part of our trans comrades, being called a "cissie" in a hostile manner (as with some of the "CISSIES MAD CISSIES MAD" posts that go around this site) really triggers those feelings.
For me, it feels like being a white person who is called a mayo, except I actually spent my childhood being pelted with jars of mayo.
Edit: At the advice of @breadandcircuses, I want to be crystal clear that this not a call out post or or an attempt to tone police anyone. Making fun of cis people is cool and good. I react badly to a specific term and this is the fault of patriarchy, not our trans comrades. I posted here in c/menby because I know that there's a lot of chapos who deal with similar issues
My 2 cents on this:
Being an Asian man living in the West is having to constantly deal with systematic emasculation by racists who run the media.
Logging on to a leftist space and being reminded of that is not a good feeling.
edit: read this whole comment thread (pretty short) for an update on shit i said here.
get rocks thrown at you as people call you a "cissie" and then tell me makes you feel like you're getting jars of mayo thrown at you lol. rocks hurt, speaking from experience. they certainly hurt more than the slurs they were throwing.
I don’t want to be the cis equivalent of a white person who gets big mad about being called a mayo or whatever. But
you are.
edit: just remembered we had this emote :cissues:
This is supposed to a space for masc folks to talk. I had an issue so I posted here to get perspective from them. I didn't post it on main or in a trans space, for that precise reason that it's not your problem. It's mine, and I hope that was clear from the post. But coming to this sub just to shit on me for posting honestly is not appreciated.
apologies, didn't see the comm as i was scrolling in all > new. if this was self crit it would be a good post. as is, it's identical to a white person complaining about being called cracker or honky.
Appreciated. I wouldn't exactly call it self-crit, but more of an attempt to sort through why it gets under my skin so badly. I feel like it shouldn't, but it does. I don't think that poking fun of cis people is inherently bad or discriminatory or beyond the pale, or that trans folks need to take my feelings into account before posting. But being called "cissie" even in this context just really triggers a lot of bad feelings from when I was younger, and I have to try and deal with that.
and I have to try and deal with that
this is totally valid. i want you to know as-is your post reads exactly like both-sides tone-policing. there is very little indication in the post of you attempting to work through your feelings, but instead reads exactly like you're giving reasons for why cissie is a slur.
Thanks comrade. That wasn't my intention, and I'll try and edit my post to avoid giving that impression.
masc spaces can also be trans spaces when they’re inclusive of trans men and enbies, which this one is
Sorry if this was not clear. There are explicitly trans spaces on this site like TEL and trans-inclusive spaces like this one (and no trans-exclusionary spaces because we don't roll that way). My point is that I didn't post it in the general area or post it explicitly to call out trans comrades, but rather here, which is for masc folks of all types. I would be more than happy to hear perspectives on this from transmasculine comrades on this if they cared to do so.
Idk. Maybe I'll just delete this post. I'm spending more time trying to justify myself than anything else
As a bisexual man, I've been harassed, bullied, and attacked for being a "sissy" so being reminded of that when someone calls me what is essentially the same word with one letter changed kinda sucks. For me at least it's not "don't use mean words against cis people," it's "don't use a word that is explicitly meant to be evocative of a word regularly used by people harassing gay/bisexual men"
Valid
South Africa has a very toxic masculine culture and my brother etc would make fun of me (bc I was unknowingly gay) and sissy, moffie etc were fairly common.
This post is very similar to other posts in this community which explain why "All Men Bad" is harmful. You are free to say "all men are bad" or "cissie", but we are also free to talk about how this makes us feel.
Finally, not my words but
i know that TMEs want “cissie” to catch on as the new “removed” for cis people but instead of doing that consider not using a word is pretty much just a mispelling of a really fetishistic word for trans woman? maybe? pernhaps?
https://plaidos.tumblr.com/post/638875359217106945/i-know-that-tmes-want-cissie-to-catch-on-as-the
I try to be a good comrade to all and I used to take part in jokes I just don’t anymore. I don’t find clowning on people for immutable characteristics as funny these days, even if it is a reaction to their own shittiness. I’m not saying go high. But for Christ’s sake this shit grows old, and it’s bizarre to come to this site sometimes because it’s like a time capsule or some digital realization of No Exit, where it’s a bunch of people having struggle sessions and calling each other names. I don’t find it particularly empowering or effective or funny these days. Same for cissies. What is even more annoying is that if you’re annoyed, not necessarily because you’re personally offended but because it’s just not that funny after a couple of years of the same lame jokes, people will shoot back that it’s not that it’s actually unfunny its just you who are a bad comrade for not laughing and that you’re telling on yourself for deep seeded implicit bias or something. You can be a comrade without trying to alienate others, even if it’s a response to oppression and alienation. Imo it’s okay to reel at “Mayo” or “cissie” because they are almost never used in attempt to build solidarity or build anything. I don’t begrudge those who use the terms, but I can imagine dropping into chapo.chat in a decade for a struggle session over the same damn thing. Harping on these differences is important to show where you stand, but once you’re in the same tent we have to make goals to empower each other by building solidarity across differences, and we should figure out how to embrace folks without shitting in them. If you’re new to the left and white and cis and don’t like the jokes, I guess “it’s your fault and we don’t want you here” is an implicit message the community doesn’t mind sending. This is an unpopular opinion
As a cis white man who has been in these sorts of circles for a long time I have learned to let it roll off my back. If someone is blaming cis straight white people for something...who cares. It literally does not hurt me. They are the ones who are hurting and they are venting that pain. We are so fucking privileged we can take it. If someone calls me a cissie or a mayo or says all cis people are bad or all men are bad or literally whatever I do not care. I keep it to myself and I fucking listen. At the very least by shutting up and letting them bash you you might learn something about their struggle. It's not that your personal struggle doesn't matter,it does and it's valid. But your personal struggle with being called names by someone who is a real victim does not matter and should not matter to that person in that moment.
So just take it and listen. It actually does not hurt you. You are not the victim in this specific instance. Being punched up at does not make you a victim.
If someone is blaming cis straight white people for something…who cares. It literally does not hurt me.
Not really what I was talking about, comrade
I understand what you were talking about. I was bullied for being "not manly", for being different, for being whatever the non-masculine pejorative word of the day was, was called all sorts of shit I didn't deserve for years growing up to the point I tried to kill myself a few times. I have very real trauma associated with that language too. I get it.
Yes, you are a victim of that language. You are a victim of toxic masculinity. So am I. But combating it by telling people who are punching up at you to stop doing that is not the way. Toxic masculinty is not the fault of our trans or enby comrades who are venting their trauma and trying to find their space. It's not the fault of our women comrades who are afraid of men because of trauma they have. Asking them and others in similar situations to stop venting and processing that trauma however they need to is not going to help solve the issue. You and I share this issue with them in some small way because ALL of us have been hurt by toxic masculinity.
Go fight toxic masculinity instead of fighting your comrades who are struggling with you.
(Editing to remove some potentially problematic coded language, sorry)
I hope it was clear that I'm not trying to fight anyone or nor did I ask anyone to stop doing anything. I thought this would be the appropriate comm to talk about how toxic masculinity affects me in this particular instance and brings up stuff that was traumatic. I don't think essentially saying "shut the fuck up, you shouldn't even bring it up, just bury your negative feelings " is really as helpful as you think it is.
I'm not even saying to not bring it up or to bury it. I just don't think this is the way to talk about it. Your post reads like "I'm not a racist but". I'm saying that if the trans enby community on this site wants to use the word "cissies", then they should, and we should support them in that. Especially considering all the stuff going on right now, I think that bringing it up in this way at this time is not the way. That's all. I think this post does more harm than good.
As I mentioned, I had been holding off on making this post, because of that exact reason, but the issues with transphobia have been going on for a long time and will likely continue going on for the foreseeable future. I've been as clear as I know how about my intentions with this post
I think this a way for our trans comrades to express their frustrations and I don't really want them to have to bottle it all up since they do that so much through out their whole lives. It can also be directed at cis women so I don't think it is gender exclusive.
Personally gonna say something maybe controversial and say it's a good thing. From what our trans comrades been saying transphobia if far more prevalent than what we can see. If I get called a cissie it's a warning that I really need to have a look at myself and realize I'm making someone uncomfortable. Kind of like how snitching to the volcelpolice works, when being too horny I can forget my other comrades and act selfishly but this reminder there to keep me in check.
To address the transphobia you need something more than just policy idk changing the culture so using the phrase cissies mad might help. It's a reminder that our trans comrades safety is more important than how it makes us feel and that all of us can slide into transphobia if left unchecked.
Something similar I can point to are the things I do for the women irl I interact with. I'm a big guy so I can be kind of scary looking so I try my best to be salient of this. I make sure I'm not cornering someone when talking to them, make noise to make my presence known, sometimes not head somewhere if a women is walking in the direction I'm heading so as not to freak her out and etc. Yeah I feel kind of weird doing this but making women feel safe is more important to me.
Same here if trans comrades use this more and more good. I hear you about feeling bad about this but if it makes them more comfortable and they stick around good. Also we become salient to our own privilege and it keeps us from sliding into tranphobia since from what our trans comrades tell us it's far more common than we think it is.
I will embrace the term "cissie".
To do otherwise is to raise a cissie-fuss :ferret-poggers-2:
Is cissie meant to weaponize toxic masculinity or is it merely a homophone?
I always assumed it was the latter. I know people are complex creatures and contradictions can happen but I just assumed people who are hyper aware of the politics around gender would also view toxic masculinity as bad and not use it. Particularly since I imagine toxic masculinity must effect various types of trans identifying people at some level.
I definitely feel your concerns here are valid, obviously being tied to your experiences. I wonder if the word is kind of a misnomer and helps tie it to problematic experiences for you in a similar way that fat, in nutrition, vs fat, as in the amount of fat on your body can be confused. Where people thought eating less fats would lead to a lost in weight but then just ate carbs.
Context matters, which is why it can be shocking when you come to a place you feel a bit less on guard in and without being in on the joke.
Kinda like the word "bitch", sometimes is empowering sometimes its a huge insult.
It hits like "fuck the troops" or "all troops are blood thirsty slaughter beasts of children" or "blood mouth" to me. Bothersome, but its to be expected if I keep visiting this space.
A. it creates an equivalent to the t-slur to turn around on cis people
That's the point.
B. is intended to trigger the toxic masculinity of cis dudes by essentially calling them “sissies”.
Cissies can be anyone on their cis nonsense, not just cis dudes. Cis women on their cis bullshit can just as equally be called cissies.
My take is that if you're trying your best to be supportive of and listen to your trans comrades when they speak of their struggles, it doesn't apply to you nor is it intended for you. If you lay outside the rigid gender binary and have faced oppression for it, congratulations you understand a fraction of what we go through and again it doesn't apply to you.
I can't stress this enough: Read Trans Liberation Beyond Pink or Blue. The transgender movement doesn't apply to only transgender people, but to everyone. Grouping everyone into a narrowly defined gender binary limits and oppresses us and also limits the means by which you express yourself as a cis person as well.
Our issues are inexplicably tied to yours. You just don't realize it.
Edit: Trans Liberation Beyond Pink or Blue is literally 147 pages and it gives great insight into what I'm talking about. I'm not going to sit here and bully you by being like "hehe cissie mad" when I could point you in the direction of something that will, more likely than not, genuinely help you. I literally scanned the whole book so you could all read it for free. There is no reason not to. That's 7 pages per night for 3 weeks.
I think it's funny when trans people use cissie because it seems like it doesn't really mean anything to the people whose feelings they want to hurt (TERFs and transphobic conservatives), but it hurts the feelings of people like you. Whenever leftists try to invent mean words for other groups, like cissie or CHUD, I don't think it ends up actually working most of the time.
This is from a while ago. If you want to read my self crit on this post you can do so here
I'm not attacking you personally, I actually think it's fine to journal about stuff like this. a guy's gotta work through his emotions somehow.
what concerns me for real though, is how many people upvoted this and agreed with the unrevised OP.
I'm just gonna let you all have this corner of the site, but I feel pretty wary of this energy. hope nothing bad comes of it! lol
I wouldn't worry overmuch. It's not a very active comm and I can't see the mods ever letting it devolve into some men's rights garbage
valid points. Anyway, i hope you have a good rest of your evening/day.
