Well, okay...I don't stan them.
But I have mixed feelings about them.
As a kid I was really into Star Wars and looked up to the Jedi, so I think it's a hold over from that.
The Jedi are flawed, foolish, short-sighted and kind of cowardly (among other things) and The Republic is a stagnant beasts with an inefficient anachronistic and byzantine system where the worst kind of poverty has existed for millennia.
...But I still kind of like them, despite their tragic faults.
Well...Idk if I like The Republic as depicted in Star Wars, in some ways I hate it.
But the idea of a galactic society where hundreds if not thousands of peoples and cultures are brought together to coexist is one I really like, and I can understand in the early days why the Jedi would of supported the creation of such an organization.
Of course it is just that, an idea , and the lore is filled with the many ways The Republic as a bourgeoise order failed these ideals.
Ultimately I think the Jedi erred in so closely associating themselves with and mooring themselves to a state.
Their understanding of the force and themselves is also incomplete or lacking, I think.
But at the end of the day I still like the little space wizard monks.
I respect their aim in controlling their emotions (even if it often materializes in suppression instead) and in being diplomats and peacekeepers for the galaxy (even if it often materializes in propping up an unjust status quo).
But now I am starting to ramble about children's media, which is an unforgivable crime, so I'll stop.
I mean, the French Revolution can be a good thing and the Liberal Capitalist State bad at the same time.
Puts on gigantic nerd hat
That said I love a stupid argument about fictional universes.
In Legends (and increasingly in the new canon as Filoni et al shove KOTOR back in), the first iteration of the Republic was formed in 25,000BBY by the former mostly-human slaves of the Infinite Empire (chiefly by a group of former praetorian guards of a petty post fall warlord), as such they had a very liberal and decentralised constitution, one that allowed a wide variety of polities to join, as long as they didn't have formal slavery.
There were several major reformations, The Republic in ep 1 is the same Republic in the same way the Qing Dynasty of China was the same government as the Xia Dynasty, but the ossification we see in Ep 1 is literally the weight of a system designed for completely different post dark-age material conditions, like if the government of Charlemagne survived and was trying to be a Liberal Democracy. The foundation is no longer fit for purpose.
The Jedi were not integrated with the Republic until the Great Hyperspace War in 5000BBY (1000 years before KOTOR) that followed discovery of the True Sith. They'd allied and occasionally involved themselves with Republican affairs in the preceding iterations of the Republic but never become a formal part of the system.
So the Jedi have spent the last 5000 years defending several iterations of the Republic (the current canon states the Republics current form is only 1000 years old) which is based on a 25,000 year old political ideology. Yeah, they're corrupt, decadent, and stagnant. How could they not be?
The Jedi were not integrated with the Republic until the Great Hyperspace War in 5000BBY (1000 years before KOTOR) that followed discovery of the True Sith. They’d allied and occasionally involved themselves with Republican affairs in the preceding iterations of the Republic but never become a formal part of the system.
Huh, I thought it was earlier than that, I guess what do you mean by "formal part."?
My lore knowledge isn't that in depth, where the Jedi just a member culture of the Republic with considerable respect/influence before then? or like...an allied partner kind of like the Bothans?How old is the Jedi Temple?
I imagined they became more active participants when they moved their temple there, but at the same time I think I remember stuff about there being many prominent temples across the galaxy, so it could have existed before but the centralization of the coruscant temple's authority could coallign with those events.Was this new involvement born from the Jedi's active participation in The Great Hyper Space War, or the preceding Century of Darkness a millennia before?
So the Jedi have spent the last 5000 years defending several iterations of the Republic (the current canon states the Republics current form is only 1000 years old) which is based on a 25,000 year old political ideology. Yeah, they’re corrupt, decadent, and stagnant. How could they not be?
If I remember right the current iteration emerged from political reforms that took place after the New Sith Wars, which was basically created to correct the contradiction in Obi-Wan saying the Republic lasted for thousands and thousands of years in ANH, and Mundi saying something like "The Republic has existed for a thousand years" in one of the prequel films. lol.
Tbh, it used to bug me that there really wasn't any power besides the Hutts and sporadically the Sith Empires that rivaled and challenged The Republic, but recently I have come around to the idea.
In a dystopic marxist kind of way I like the idea of this gigantic galactic bourgeoise republic that integrates and assimilates every culture it meets.where the Jedi just a member culture of the Republic with considerable respect/influence before then? or like…an allied partner kind of like the Bothans?
A member culture I think, one with several worlds, an errant knight tradition and a sporadic involvement in Republic military actions and politics (they even arrested a chancellor once) but no bigass central temple on Coruscant and meddling in the structure of government until around 5000BBY. It was started, I think by the aftermath of the HYD, but solidified later with the GHW.
Their second major homeworld, Ossus was destroyed around this time, their first Tython was abandoned after the first schism, since the planet responded tectonically to an overabundance of dark or light side users. Ahch-to I think is being retconned as one of the places force-sensitive refugees with proto-Jedi philosophies come from to Tython around 35,000BBY (Jedi be old).
You're right about the New Sith Wars.
There are and have been Republic threatening powers, and there are the Chiss and the (sigh) Vong. The Republic is really restricted to its major trade lanes. Most of the Galaxy is hard to get to.
I remember reading about Xim the despot in some rulebook.
and for some reason a Hutt becoming chancellor sounds familiar.
I didn't know this for the most part, that's pretty interesting.
I'm glad there are other marxist who have over analyized the symbolism/overarching narrative of star wars as much as me.
I have seen some of TNG, and like...there is something compelling about The Federation, but at the same time Star Trek has always felt so sterile and uniform to me.
Most of the main aliens just seem like slightly different humans, I mean...Star Wars has a similar issue, but less so I feel like.
It also doesn't help that we view it all from the perspective of military officers in a state of the art spaceship.
Which I find less compelling then smugglers, rebels, and magic monk knights in junky starships.Still want to check it out at some point though, and the society itself is more functional and better than The Republic.
Most of the main aliens just seem like slightly different humans
The largest reason for this is budget, but yeah it's a valid critique!
It's also a major minunderstanding to think of TNG's Enterprise as a military ship. It's a science and exploration vessel before all else, and the vast majority of problems are solved via diplomacy. The reason their starship is so state of the art is because it's a vision of a post-scarcity society. It's an excessively optimistic show that has strong roots in communism being the correct version of the future.
I mean, I realize all of that, but it is still very rooted in a sort of military structure. It simultaneously interests me and deeply bores.
Like I remember one scene where like...Picard and Worf are arguing and grappling with the morality of a trial and I find that sort of conflict compelling in their universe where there is less material reasons for wars and stuff.
It's also interesting in how you as a post-scarcity society interact with other societies that aren't.Like I said though, it can feel sterile, also lacks space magic.
I remember a scene from TNG that has always stuck with me, I have no idea what episode it was in or what it was about, but Riker goes to unwind after a long hard day of work, and he goes to his private cabin and turns on a video of a pair of women playing the harp.
And I just thought god, it would be so miserable if I spent my entire day working in the Navy and then what I did for fun was listen to a pair of women in togas play individual harp notes.
From what little I know I was under the impression that Riker fucks
Maybe so, but his idea of fun alone time is https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/8/87/Holographic_harps.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20120819183955&path-prefix=en
Frakes is cool and probably chose that himself just to fuck with us
The series has always been at least mildly critical of the Jedi. Part of Luke's journey in the OT is understanding that he needs to not listen to Obi-Wan/Yoda about how to deal with Vader when their decisions are what created him in the first place. The prequels, Last Jedi and Kotor just build on those themes. Jedi fanboys always weird me out, because they've always been portrayed as generally on the right side of things, but arrogant and extremely flawed. Can't wait for the new Kotor though.
I'm kind of in a weird place where I find the Jedi really cool viscerally, but I hate them on an intellectual level. So it makes sense that my favorite Star Wars properties (Kotor2 and The Last Jedi) have cool lightsaber fights and also talk about how the Jedi suck ass
There needs to be a Jedi Karl Marx so the Jedi can understand historical materialism as well as the force influences galactic events and to show them a path out of The Republic's bourgeoise ideology.
Other then that they have almost the right idea, I think....almost.I'm not sure how materialism works in Star Wars when the Force basically enforces idealism. Even Kotor2, which goes out of its way to show that the average person doesn't really care about the difference between Jedi and Sith, still does demonstrate that history in SW is a matter of dueling ideas rather than class warfare.
It can be both , but maybe I am biased because that's kind of how I see things irl :meow-coffee:
I mean it's pretty clear that the Jedi were meant to be good & the Republic was meant to be good, in the first few Star Wars movies anyway. Then as the setting grew, more and more writers wanted to create material that was different somehow, or that required earthshaking events where the Jedi at a minimum drop the ball, and over time they became less and less good/effective (and likewise for the Republic). The same thing happens with any media that lasts long enough.
Word. Star War has so much material that you can make almost any take "correct".
Star Wars is in the weird spot where people are randomly born with like, demigod tier powers. Having them be volcel monks with no emotion is basically a 99% effective form of harm reduction, since every other method tends to end with evil people starting wars that kill millions. Can you even imagine if Earth had the same system, fucking Sith capitalism or some shit?
This is why Kreia in KOTOR 2 has the only correct take, that the force should be deleted entirely. Obviously she has to fail, it's not Star Wars without the force, but removing would save literally billions of lives.The Force is cool and good. It's using your powers and abilities to hurt people and do selfish things that is bad.
The Force as a metaphor is very basically "If you wield power over people bad things will inevitably happen." It's a variation on "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Powerful men are almost always bad men". The Force wins when it acts subtly or when it rejects violence. You "Win" at having supernatural power by using its cautiously and only when it can help people, or for self defense. You "Lose" when you use it to pursue and fulfill personal ambitions or to lash out at the world.
This is why Kylo Ren is the best dark Jedi - He's a petulant child, basically a school shooter wannabe nazi
Obi-wan is some weird desert monk who steps out of the shadows to basically do a good deed. The Emperor is an evil dude who seizes control of everything out of a pure, unalloyed lust for power.
Yeah, I just can't get behind eradicating this unifying force that connects everything in the universe because people misuse it or become too reliant on those who have it.
Qui-gon said in the first movie that life as we know it wouldn't even exist without the force, so who knows what the ramifications for destroying it would be in their world.
The Empire didn't need the Force to build the Death Star, but Luke did need the Force to stop it.
Honest question; At what point did Palpatine use the force to bring about the Empire? As far as I remember he only used the force to hide his own force power from the Jedi. Everything else was done by straightforward political manipulation, playing on people's fears and greed.
Apparently in the old canon, he got angry at his dad and "accidentally" killed his entire close family, which got him scouted by the previous sith and all the connections that come with that. It also puts him in the comfortable position of being more or less the strongest person in the universe, the dude was almost invincible and being immune to assassination attempts and whatnot as space Hitler is a big bonus.
Okay but my point is that you don't need space magic to do any of those things. Hitler was famously immune to assassination, too.
But that's all stuff that countered the actions of other space wizards. 1 + -1 = 0. If you take the space wizardry out of the equation he did it all by good old fashioned murder and skullduggery, just like Hitler on whom he was largely modelled.
Also, the escalation of what the Force is and does between the OT and a lot of the expanded universe material does is wild.
Darth Vader, the most feared man in the galaxy; Chokes people, can sense when someone is strong in the force, can cut up mooks really good.
KOTOR: Here's a guy who eats planets because he's sad.
Like... These are not the same story, and you shouldn't assess them as though they were.
"Don't be so impressed with this technological terror you have created, it is insignificant next to the power of the Force"
Later
Luke blows up the technological terror using the Force
I don't necessarily hate the Jedi, but the biggest shortcoming in KOTOR when I replayed it was that there was never a "good" option that didn't also support the establishment and all of its failures in some way. It made me realize that if you became some kind of populist revolutionary in the Star Wars universe and lead a proletarian uprising, you would almost certainly be smeared by the Jedi Council as a "Sith Lord" regardless of whether you had actually turned to the Dark Side, and god damn there's a piece of Star Wars media I would love to see.
Yuthura is basically "what if sith were revolutionaries instead of fash"
The "good" option in her storyline is to send her back to the Jedi and be all "keep working within the system and they'll ban slavery eventually" though. Which of course they don't because there are still slaves 4000 years later when the movies happen.
Which of course they don’t
I mean, a lot can happen in 4000 years, and the Galaxy is a big place. Whether slavery was abolished and later reinstituted, or condemned to the fringes for some amount of time and then crept back in, isn't entirely clear.
But telling someone to climb back into the echo chamber and stop caring so much signals that it probably was not.
True which is why I chose the dark side options for the most part with her.
I think I chose a couple light side when she sounded like she was going to go full sith to try and steer her right.Later on in KOTOR you get Dark Side points for doing a John Brown to some Wookie slavers, and the narrative ties itself in knots to "both sides" the whole thing. That game is truly one of the greats, but the "good" options always break towards the status quo, it's kind of annoying.
The cool thing about KOTOR II is that Obsidian goes to great lengths to explain why Bioware's method of gamifying morality into "good points" and "evil points" is bad and dumb, but a decade later Bioware would continue to wonder why nobody ever plays the "evil" options in their games.
I'm assuming the only time people picked "evil" options was like blowin up the tank under that krogan that kept on ranting?
And punching the annoying reporter / killing Kaidan (which... why is that an evil option? it's self defense and the "good" option also results in you killing him!)
It took me a second to remember who you were talking about but that was such a badass moment. When you just shatter that blade in half
I haven't played the MMO or read any tie-in books, but my headcanon is that Revan started the war to overthrow the Republic with good intentions, but Malak brought in all of the fashy Sith elements shortly after betraying his master.
That's pretty much canon I think, I think he kind of lost himself in it though, but Malak was alot worse.
I remember in KOTOR II Kreia reveals that a big part of why Revan wanted to take over was to prepare the Republic for an invasion of something else that was coming from either the edge of the galaxy or outside it, which was kind of a cool idea that they never got to follow up on.
it was, the purpose was to prepare for the real sith empire, what they later represented in the tor mmo as being a bit of a disappointment compared to the mystique of that narrative setup
the real sith empire
aww that's weak. I was expecting a unique villain like the Yuuzhan Vong, not "more red lightsabers".
I thought he was preparing them for when the emperor showed up, but that could have been a swtor post hoc explanation
I always got the vibe that Kreia from KotOR 2 was a randian objectivist. I never brought her along on my part.
I got the vibe that Kreia is a Sith. I don't remember much beyond being incredibly unimpressed with her "But askually morality is bad" bullshit.
It's so much worse than that. In the game it's supposed to be that she isn't Jedi or Sith, she's in the middle/beyond all that. I think the term was "gray jedi".
Yeah except she's clearly full of shit and trying to manipulate you to the dark side by telling you that morality is fake, actually.
Doesn't she bust out three red light saber in the end? Her name is literally Darth Traya, Sith Lord of Betrayal.
It's been a long time since I played the game but I remember being thoroughly unimpressed with her "Both sides" bullshit. She was just trying to justify her own failure to, you know, not be a shitty person.
Sorry I misread your response and got aggro. I hate the "Grey Jedi" idea. It smacks of edgelord ancapl.... eeugh,, it just steams by britches thinking about it.
hi guise my star wras OC is Keven-wan Darksteel Maul, he is a supr strong jedi master who is vry nice but also he haz one red eye and one violet eye and his favorite color is black with neon green ofc and also he can just flip out and electricut dudez with force lighting cuz thats fucking sick
edit: plz stahp pming me i am not lookng for critisizm rn
Except isn't the climax literally that
spoiler
Kreia is the Sith Lord Darth Traya the whole time
Probably something like that or an egoist, when I played it I took her along because I found her fascinating and her VA was amazing.
Droid liberation front as an Age of Rebellion game is fun as hell
When I was a kid I liked the really really old republic era as presented in the Dark Horse Tales of the Jedi comic series. Long before the prequels, the jedi there were much more like ronin samurai, just kinda traveling around alone or with their mentor, helping people out or answering calls for aid, occasionally aligning with the nascent republic to fight off the invading Sith empire.
It was much more in line with what I assumed George's original conception of Jedi were, cool adventuring space warriors with no real centralized structure.
I, too, prefer the "wandering warrior monks" Jedi. Star Wars owes a lot to, well, The Hidden Fortress and similar samurai movies and I choose to imagine a world where they stuck with that motif.
Jedi are all about denying emotion, sith are the flip side of repressing yourself
It's always puzzled me that the two ways of approaching the Force appear to be either anger, or serenity.
Like has anyone tried fueling your Force use with joy?
I'm gonna ramble about my interpretation of a fictional metaphysical entity for a bit.
I think the Jedi are mostly right in their interpretation of the Force, but also wrong in key ways and I think the Sith are mostly wrong, but somewhat right in some insights.
The Sith view the Force as a tool, a means to an end, as something to be mastered, but that's not what the Force is.
It's a living energy that connects all living things, if not all matter.
You can influence the force and in turn the force can influence you, you can use it to aid yourself and others, but at the end of the day it's not a tool and the relationship beings have with it shouldn't be as such primarily.I would also agree that there is a dark and a light side to the force and in that dark side there entails evil.
But I wouldn't say everything about it is evil.
I think when it is said the force is out of balance, it is because darkside users like the Sith and the Infinite Empire have had a corrupting influence on the force and in turn it has had a corrupting influence on them.The difference between the dark and light sides appeared to be in how they feel to those who are aware of them. The light side at times was described as a flowing river: soothing, constant, with hidden strength. In contrast, the dark side was described as a roaring fire: obviously powerful, seductive, and potentially dangerous. Darth Revan and Darth Bane mentioned the difference between the two sides of the Force. They claimed that while the light side represented the compassion and tranquility of all beings of the galaxy, the dark side focused on individual passion and strength. They also mentioned that while the light side was about maintaining the status quo, the dark side was about change and evolution.
This I think is true and I think the Jedi err in failing to recognize or embrace these sides of the force.
To put it poetically I think to be perfectly in balance you have to be apart of this grand flowering river of the universe that connects everyone and to embrace that collectivity, while also not letting that river extinguish the fire within you.
Or on the flip side, not burning your fire to the extent you cause the river to drought.Kyle Katarn is "jedi"for you. It's been so long since I was deep into the lore but he and a few others were the "grey jedi"
Kind of, in season 6 of the clone wars cartoon series there's a mystical "Force Planet" where 5 immortal force priestesses who may or may not just be living manifestations of the force appear to try and test Yoda/tempt him to the dark side. They're all named after/represent emotional states. One of them represents Joy.
Is this a different Force Planet from the other Force Planet where living manifestations of the Force are a dad and his failson and success daughter?
Imagining a badass force sensitive hermit who does this, he's all smiles and guffaws, and it turns out he could lift a planet but doesn't.
Haha, that is really good. Although I'm thinking of someone who's basically that down to his true core, there's no mask, just supernatural mirth.
And you find out he/she has actually been doing something quite helpful using their immense powers, but making it seem like a natural phenomenon or coincidence. Like creating a nebula that has been hiding the good guys, doing battle meditation, or something. And they're absolutely not a Jedi or Sith.
The nightsisters seem to have it down, except for that wierd cult Tenzin leads worshiping the fanged God instead of just acknowledging it as a useful part of yourself
In KOTOR I argued with the lame nerd Jedi characters all the time, still did the "good" path though
KOTOR is best played as a grey jedi where you accept, but don't fully embrace your past as Darth Revan.
It's so much more satisfying and compelling then being a milqutoast Jedi who is like "that's not who I am anymore, guise."Edit: also mod it so you can get the Darth Revan amour after the reveal because it looks cool and it's a shame you can only wear it for like the final boss fight and only if you chose the dark side ending in the base game.
Edit Edit: also also save Korriban for after the reveal, it works alot better thematically and Yuthura is best girl.
KOTOR is best played as a grey jedi where you accept, but don’t fully embrace your past as Darth Revan.
:this:
Edit Edit: also also save Korriban for after the reveal, it works alot better thematically and Yuthura is best girl.
The Sith Academy, aka "We thought Slytherin was too subtle". Everyone there is so comedically petty and self-serving you wonder how the Sith ever managed to take over anything
The Sith Academy, aka “We thought Slytherin was too subtle”. Everyone there is so comedically petty and self-serving you wonder how the Sith ever managed to take over anything
Well, idk how the empire was managing their education system, but their new leader at that point was Darth Malak who just killed his own master in the middle of a huge battle, so maybe it's on brand for him.
Just because it’s children’s media doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it lmao
That’s fair. I’m a Star Wars fan as well and you have a good analysis of the Jedi.
