China has gay people in movies. Where do you people even get these dumb ideas from
Where do you people even get these dumb ideas from
B-but the goverment of the USA told me that China is evil!
+20 US credit score. Congrats, you now qualify for an exploitive student loan that you won't ever be able to repay!
we literally have the highest per capita rate of prisoners on the planet??? you can literally look at a member of the government legal enforcement force wrong and get imprisoned??
people literally say in response to police beatings that you should just obey the police. How are you free if at any moment you may be stopped and ordered to perform abitrary tasks under threat of violence
plus americans can't even legally walk on the street
I've been arrested for protesting before. I can say all I want until I try doing something about it. That's when the cops come out.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/10/04/bernie-sanders-code-pink-ukraine-aid-protest-arrest/
Not really no
That only happened because Bernie is a pinko commie who is pro China, so he runs his office like China. In fact Bernie's office is actually inside of a Chinese embassy, which means that it's actually part of China. We know this because nobody would EVER be arrested for protesting in the White Free Western world, so the only logical explanation is that it must be China.
Funny that you think I haven't been arrested for protesting, because I have. So no, not really. The smell of tear gas in my neighborhood doesn't smell very freeing to me.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/10/04/bernie-sanders-code-pink-ukraine-aid-protest-arrest/
absolutely innovative and pioneering humor. A stroke of genius. One of the most unique and original jokes I've heard in ages. You are truly a visionary.
https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality
This is stupid even in the world of social credit score jokes that were fresh a decade ago. Praising China (here, just saying something accurate) would increase your credit score, you dolt.
"We, the enlightened and human rights respecting West, did an about face on LGBT people having rights about 10 years ago after many centuries of violent persecution and suppression.
Now you, the country who's main ethnic group derives it's demonym from a dynast of bisexual emperors, and which has never had large scale and systematic persecution or suppression of gay people, must depict gay people in media exactly as we do.
If you do not, we will call you barbarians."
Can gay people exist in America without their sexual identities being the subject of endless culture war bullshit?
I'm all for China legalizing gay marriage and full protections for LGBT people. That process requires Chinese society to have its own conversation, which is what's happening right now. Copy pasting American culture war bullshit verbatim isn't going to do gay people any good, and a gay character in a kids movie certainly isn't going to do jack shit.
the newer generations in china have been leading the way in terms of a public opinion shift towards acceptance of LGBTQ people. on social media and in city centers you can find a lot of LGBTQ youth freely expressing themselves from what i've seen.
There are even laws against hate speech towards LGBT people in the Chinese national media. That will literally never happen in America
Then why change the movies? Why not just not release them if Chinese society isn't ready to have that conversation yet?
They're having the conversation right now. Like there was a recent incident where LGBTQ stuff was banned off Weibo (Chinese social media) and there was a public outcry that reversed the decision. It's up to China to decide how they'll progress and I'm optimistic about it.
China's censorship laws are mostly designed for protectionist reasons, like they don't want their domestic film industry overrun by Disney or Sony. They'd rather have an internal market that's not bound to international businesses. That said, their censorship board is, for better or worse, operated by a bunch of stick in the mud boomers. Hopefully it'll get better with increasing awareness among younger people and changing trends. That said, the idea that China needs its government overthrown because it censors movies or that the state isn't as progressive as it could be? That's absurd and not helping anything.
I should also mention that homosexuality was mostly seen as normal or ignored throughout Chinese history up until the 19th century. It was a theme at the time that Britain or some other western power would start involving themselves within an Asian country and rewrite local laws, including restrictions on homosexuality.
I've never said they need to be overthrown? That's literally not what I'm saying at all.
Well, I'd say sorry on his behalf, considering you seem to ask the question in good faith...
Most of the useful conversation to be had is not from the west demanding they just adopt western culture. I don't support censoring movies on homophobic grounds, but I think gay media produced and shown domestically (which absolutely does exist) is much more productive and important.
Because giving the impression that LGBT issues are an imposition on Chinese society by the West in general and America specifically is going to distort the issue at best and at worst give the conservatives ammo to say that LGBT is an American plot to blah blah blah. Especially in the context of a Disney movie, aimed at kids, which adds in a "they're coming for our children" factor.
It would do incalculable damage to the advancement of LGBT rights in China for such rights to be tied to America or the West, so on balance the censors probably did the LGBT community a solid here.
Plus, that's assuming that this is the censors in China and not Disney self censoring because Disney thinks the Chinese censors care.
I don't see how a story about a gay character could possibly do such damage to an entire movement regardless of its country of origin.
I'm really not trying to be obtuse I actually don't understand.
Well for one, China and much of the global south have been struggling against the political, economic, and cultural hegemony of the West for centuries now and there's a pretty visceral aversion to doing whatever the west is perceived to be telling us to do. Especially so on a cultural and societal level where Westerners have zero idea of who we are and how we do things but just constantly tell us how we should think and behave.
In this specific context, there well recognized scholars who posit that homophobia was spread in China by Westerners during the late Qing and Republican era. In addition to being rightfully wary of Western social and cultural meddling, there is also a strong rejection of the hypocrisy of the West causing this problem in the first place and now judging us for not immediately following their model in solving it.
For another, Western media just recently demonstrated how willing it is to politicize Disney movies by accusing China and Occupied Korea of being racist because of poor ticket sales of The Little Mermaid. If Westoid media makes a big song and dance about how a billion and a half Chinese people are homophobes because we didn't turn up to see a Disney movie, that's going to taint the whole movement with an association to hysterical Western political media.
Nope! And thats bad. But marriage equality is not the only measure of queer rights. Queer people in China are largely left alone and not hate crimed and speaking as a queer I'd rather get to be alive than get married.
China absolutely needs to work on its legal rights for queer people. I'm not saying otherwise. But you are still looking at the issue through a very western lense, and a hypocritical one considering how recently queer rights have even been begun to be accepted in the west. And how fast we are moving backwards on them in America especially. And how bad issues like homeless queer youth still are.
Why is it hypocritical? I've supported the LGBT movement for literally as long as I can remember. It's somehow my fault that other people haven't realized that gay people are still people?
Have you ever criticized someone for looking at the issue through a very eastern lense or is that reserved for people you deem as western-enough?
I'm not a Christian, but one of the things I've always felt Jesus was really on point on was when he said "take the beam out of your own eye before taking the speck of dust from your neighbors".
I think this can be applied to geopolitics very well, even if you think the other country has the beam and you have the speck of dust, its still advisable to focus on your own countries problems. Its hypocritical not on a personal level, but on a national level. To use a non Christian phrase, its throwing stones in a glass house. Idk what specific country you're from, but unless its China you can't do much about China's issues with queer rights, so why focus on them? Focus on wherever you're from.
Like literally the only thing a Westerner can "do about" Chinese queer rights issues is encourage war/regime change, which you should know does not have a good record of working out for the effected country. And thats the problem we communists have when people start talking about China's problem. We know our countries want regime change in China, so we see this shit as supporting of that. Its basically a threat.
Have you ever criticized someone for looking at the issue through a very eastern lense or is that reserved for people you deem as western-enough?
No, I haven't, because I'm a westerner lol. Like I said, I focus my criticisms at home.
I want good for all people on this Earth. Like, I wouldn't ignore verbal abuse just because there's physical assault still happening, y'know? I'm not a politician or even a particularly smart guy. I know my original post came off bad, sorry.
Well, what happens when the guy doing physical assault wants you on his side vs the verbal abuse guy? Thats the US running propaganda on China.
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights? this is such an annoying talking point from liberals. i have heard american conservatives going on national stages and calling for the complete genocide of trans people, but i have not heard of anything like that from chinese politicians.
china has a long road ahead in terms of queer rights, but compared to queer rights (and "rights" like the right to get married, right to die in an imperialist war, etc) backsliding in the west, there's a pretty big difference.
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights?
Kind of reminds me of the space race and how the USSR had all these amazing achievements but America decided that the winner was the first one to land people on the moon.
I ain't no fucking lib. It's a simple standard of acceptance in society (i.e. gay people get to participate in the same governmental institutions as everyone else).
As a transbian, fuck no it isnt, that is liberal bullshit. Marriage is a patriarchal institution.
No sense arguing with tankies. Every take I've seen from hexbear itt is absolute brainrot, and I can't wait until we can block entire instances.
Signed, A gay, married anarchist
I'm a queer anarchist and I've posted plenty on hexbear, is it possible you only notice the takes that cause you the most instinctive reaction? There is a more diverse array of views there than people on other instances realize I think. And I've seen more constructive discussion there than most places on the internet, including lemmy.world and other instances.
That's great, although I'm not sure how well someone who fundamentally opposes statehood can find much meaningful discourse there.
Look below, and you'll see tankies accusing me of transphobia and all manner of evil simply because I choose to be married, even though I by no means exclude or invalidate anyone else's relationship.
It fucking sucks when people can defend a state for excluding gay people (or any people) from rights that others enjoy. It's in itself LGBTphobic. Not me -- them
The only 'tankies accusing' anything I saw in the convo were people mentioning that "marriage is a patriarchal institution", which I don't see how that is calling you a transphobe even if you disagree. Someone did mention trans people don't care about marriage because they are being murdered, maybe that is what you are referring to, it really didn't come off to me like anyone was calling you a transphobe but maybe I'm wrong. I didn't see anyone say that you couldn't be married, or that people can't enjoy having a marriage, to me that is separate from critique of marriage as a patriarchal institution. But yeah, I don't know why anyone would defend a state for anything. That's part of why I do feel the need to engage with more 'state-friendly' socialists, to figure out what about it seems necessary to them, or if there is some greater flaw with my anti-state belief.
authoritarian genocidal regimes
Like the United States?
authoritarian regimes
As opposed to those non-authoritarian regimes that you, as a self proclaimed anarchist, definitely believe in.
Damn you got really mad at someone for saying that they are interested in why pro-state socialists feel that way and want to learn. Why does someone wanting to learn make you so angry? Maybe because you're closed minded and refuse to listen and learn in the slightest?
Someone with as much obvious privilege as you, who wields it in conversations freely, calling others priviledged for the mere act of engaging with people who think differently than them is quiet rich.
ETA: I think you need to maybe think about introspecting instead of lashing out when someone accuses you of being a priviledged white gay westerner "pulling up the ladder". Because that is a quiet common phenomenon (see men like Pete Buttigieg for example). White gays who aren't poor saying "ok, we won marriage equality, dont care about the rest of it" is very frequent and you ARE acting like that in this thread.
Hexbear has the largest number of trans people than any other instance lmao
Yet another gay trying to split away from the T rather than trying to understand why so many trans people hold views like this
As an anarchist you should agree with "marriage is a patriarchal institution" since that take was pretty much invented by anarchists.
Breaking news: White gay man doesn't recognize his privilege within the broader queer community, and now the weather
The critique of marriage as a patriarchal institution was invented by anarchists lmao. I'm just a "tankie" but I'm well read on anarchist lit, why aren't you as an anarchist?
Because all anarchists famously agree on everything
Fucking galaxy brain
I'm not aware of any queer anarchist critiques that don't acknowledge that marriage, especially as recognized by the state, is a patriarchal institution, they just go on to elaborate how that can be subverted within queer culture. Do you have any links or recommendations for writings that argue that marriage recognized by the state isn't a patriarchal institution at all?
dw they'll get back to you after they write their own.
it's going to be Harry Potter but Harry is gay, nothing else changes
What the fuck are you talking about, Jesse?
Edit: I believe trans people should have equity too, and the freedom to enter into whatever type of relationship that they so choose, whatever that may look like. Ironically, it's you who are trying to invalidate other people's relationships. I'm doing nothing of the kind.
invalidate other people's relationships
No one is trying to do this. Stop putting words into people's mouths.
I don't come here to argue, nor do I come here to convince
Typical tankie seeing everything as a power struggle
tankie seeing everything as a power struggle
Anarchists are also rightfully obsessed with criticizing hierarchy and power what are you talking about? What do you think being an anarchist means?
everything literally is a power struggle, the power of the working class and the power of the capitalist class.
did you skip theory or something?
Yeah man you really got me good I actually pressed x to lie and you really called me out you did such a a good job.
No it isn't lmao. I care more about housing rates among LGBT people, China and Cuba are high on that list.
Signed: yet another hexbear trans user. Weird how so many trans people on lemmy are hard left 🤔
If that's the kind of logic that convinces you of things, you should check out all of the other people saying the same thing as me.
Basically your one job as a leftist when it comes to capitalist propaganda is to not unquestioningly repeat it and guess what you're doing, lib. And it's in the realm of orientalism to boot. Not exactly distinguishing yourself.
2nd trans here, having a house and job would help way more than just some legal lip service that'll be taken away in 20 years
why is inclusion in an often patriarchal/misogynistic and conservative institution as marriage the end-all-be-all of queer rights?
Legal protections mostly. If you get married, you have a right to see your spouse in the hospital. Otherwise, they're just another person even if you've been living together for 50 years. You also have a right to inheritance, the right to receive pensions and 401k, etc etc. An unmarried partner is essentially left with nothing unless explicitly stated in a will and even then they don't have all the legal protections.
Imagine living with someone for 20 years and they get into a car wreck, you can't see them before they die because you're not married. You get kicked out of your home because legally you're just a roommate and have no right to stay in that house. Then, all the money your partner invested goes to their shithead parents who kicked them out as a child. None of that would happen if you were married.
Marriage is an outdated contract but the functions it provides are still important to society.
Edit: Obviously I support China but marriage isn't just a "proof of love" or some other sentimental thing.
Can a gay kid who is kicked out of their home find housing in the US?
Not being threatened with homelessmess would have helped me infinitely more than the right to be married.
Wouldn't that also apply to a gay kid in china? I somehow doubt they just give away free housing to people.
China is not perfect on the matter of right-to-housing, but it is very good. Everyone has a right to have some kind of housing unit, though they don't necessarily (and in fact, I think usually don't) "own" it and family homes are counted if the kid isn't formally disowned. A very large number of the homeless population in China are "itinerant homeless," those who do have a family home but have moved elsewhere and aren't paying rent for an apartment (usually due to poverty, and therefore may live on the street) in order to try to get a job in the city with which to support themselves and possibly the rest of their family, who are usually back home in some rural area. This is very different from what homelessness typically looks like in the US, though it happens here too.
If a child is not formally disowned but is nonetheless forced out by their family, then it's effectively a matter of child abuse to be handled by the appropriate government organization once it is discovered/reported, and either the family recants or they formally disown the child. If they are formally disowned, they are entitled to shelter.
Though not the same system by any means, I think the DPRK's law on this subject is similar, though it's much easier for poor families (and kids therein) to fall through the cracks, meaning that you are more likely* to find a homeless queer kid there as a consequence.
*on a per-capita level
actually that is a literal program they have
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3219935/more-chinese-cities-offer-free-accommodations-lure-jobseekers-ease-their-financial-burden
if you ignore the sinophobia, its a common policy to give residence to those apply for it while waiting for work. One can apply multiple times, or directly reach out to a government official for help to find work.
Funfact to tell the haters(since I assume few if any are here): The gays are not doing this to Disney. Disney is doing this to the gays, they make 17 first openly this or that kind of queerness because they want the gay peoples money.
There are LGBTQ movies from China so this makes no sense. One of my favorites is Lan Yu (藍宇) from 2001. Most of the characters are gay men and the plot is even critical of how the army handled the 1989 Tiananmen Square incident.
Did y'all learn about what China is like from Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoons or what
Since this work contained positive depictions of gay men, explicit (by Chinese standards) gay sex scenes, and resurrected the ghost of Tiananmen Square, at the time, no mainland Chinese publisher would have published it, nor would the author be safe from government reprisals. Hence, its anonymous publication on the Internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Yu_(film)
Ah, such a free and progressive society!
so much better than america, where it just wouldn't be made in the first place
It's heavily astroturfed by the US government, so your sarcastic comment was accidentally correct
Try fixing that section, which is entirely speculation, and see how quickly it gets reverted and by whom. You'll quickly run into either a power user with reactionary politics that should've been banned ages ago per Wikipedia's own policies or a series of FirstWordLastWord962578 accounts making reversions with no explanation.
The latter is what lazy government behavior looks like. The former is the larger social structures built around the acceptability and empowerments of reactionary thought and narratives that is inherently anticommunist.
But really, go do it. Remove the section as speculation and show/tell us what happens.
Wikipedia article speculation cited as fact on lemmy dot net.
Western propaganda is a series of clowns honking each other's noses all the way down.
The wiki explains that most of the crew from this movie is from mainland China, however it was made by a Hong Kong director and was filmed without permission from the government.
It explicitly states
at the time, no mainland Chinese publisher would have published it, nor would the author be safe from government reprisals. Hence, its anonymous publication on the Internet.
The film did had a brief showing run in December 2001, at Peking University, where interest by Chinese citizens was quite high, selling out the showings.
Peking University
In Beijing
Sounds like the oppressive Chinese government allowed them to show the movie.
From the Beijing film festival wiki
The Festival originated from Peking University, and is considered to be "the only community-based non-governmental film festival in China with a special focus on gender and sexuality"
Didnt say it was a government event. Said the governemnt would implicitly have had to allowed it to happen, or it wouldn't have. Or at least, thats what people who think the Chinese government is an all powerful oppressive force would say. Which is my point.
ETA: Like the fact that a festival like that exists AT ALL, in the nation's capital, proves that the government isnt an evil opressive anti-queer regime that people paint it as.
The movie was filmed without permission, what makes you think it couldn't have been shown without permission?
Good Chinese folk can find ways around unjust restrictions just like any other country in the world. The first "festival"was held in a library in the University, probably not the type of festival you are imagining.
They didn't get explicit permission, but they also didnt get shut down.
Also, the "filmed without permission" is weird phrasing anyway. Does every indy movie in other countries get explicit permission from the government to be filmed? A Wiki article for, say, an Australian indy movie about queer people that covers Australian oppression of the indigenous wouldn't go out of its way to mention "the government didn't give permission for it to be filmed" because why would it? The government doesn't need to approve such project. Including the "government didnt give permission" feels like editorializing to make things sound more sinister then they are.
They operated for less than a month, could have gone unnoticed?
And no I don't think it's weird phrasing. It's absolutely common practice to get permits to film in public places and historic sites: https://www.thefilmfund.co/how-to-get-film-permits-and-location-releases/
If you're filming on private property your supposed to get they owners permission too.
If a Australian film did some guerilla filming I'm sure that would be mentioned in it's wiki because it can serve to promote the movie.
Edit: try googling "movies made without permission" https://www.dailyhindnews.com/top-10-movie-scenes-shot-without-permission-its-all-illegal/
It's absolutely common practice to get permits to film in public places and historic sites:
Lmao that's an entirely different thing than "you need government permission to make a film with a certain type of subject material."
Americans call the Boston massacre and only 6 people died, just saying that on the level of supposedly horrific state violence that should never be forgotten, so you have any idea how many massacres of the same and larger scale the United States has perpetrated just in the last 30 years?
According to the Chinese Communist Party around 200-300 civilians died, and several thousands were injured. According to most other agencies, the numbers are around 10 times higher, with 1000 to 3000 dead. Either way, it's a very high number of dead.
Or is this not a massacre? By the way, two wrongs don't make a right
You don’t give a fuck about the wrongdoings of any country but the ones you were told are “enemies”
Cops in the US murder thousands of people every year, bet you don’t even spare a thought for it, is my point
State violence only bad when it’s not my state
I do care about wrongdoings of any country. The issues with police violence, racial discrimination and gun violence in the US are not a secret. You are not the first one talking about that. Everyone in the west talks about that, it's now the first thing most people think of when talking about the US in the west.
That being said, I don't understand why, when anyone even tries to say "China bad" the answer is always "but America is also bad". Why does that make it right?
because we're in a contrived thread that twists over backwards to shit on china, not a thread about the legitimate issues with china. Its frustrating to see, even when I agree that china is pretty bad in a lot of ways, seeing that drumbeat of "enemy state bad" as an army of mindless brainwashed western redditors marches by throwing out half truths and outright lies (its almost never real criticisms, like with north korea its just miles long lists of shit westerners were taught to think like its illegal to not have the kim haircut) it just makes my head pop
I do care about wrongdoings of any country.
then critique the one that you live under first ya idiot
Do that every morning. But then I remember that my government is not bombing hospitals or operating concentration camps...
Now, try to criticize China, unless you think it's perfect, in which case, oh boy...
Do that every morning. But then I remember that my government is not bombing hospitals or operating concentration camps...
if you're german, imma have to make you take a seat ya toddler. You were the propaganda boy for concentration camps and genocide.
Even if I were, which I'm not, you are talking about events that happened 80 years ago and never again since. The USSR did it for far longer (Gulags) and China is still operating concentration camps.
germany's next party seems to be far-right
and they stand with israel
they seem to be the same Nazis they used to be
and they stand with israel they seem to be the same Nazis they used to be
Yup, Hitler was famous for his support to Israel. Fucking hell why am I even replying
Israelis are Nazis, and deserve to die like them
Yup, Hitler was famous for his support to Israel
... sir you really need to read up on your history oh my fucking god
All the organizers, though, are living cushy rich lives in Taiwan and the USA now
Wonder whose head those deaths are on? It's not like you can legally go around impaling soldiers to buses and stealing apcs and tanks in any country
Yes, I was worried about the square. Thank God most of the massacre happened on the streets around Tienanmen
The point is that the western sequence of events is incorrect on the face of it.
https://tiananmensquare.carrd.co/
"I was lied to about an obvious, easily verifiable fact, but I'm sure the people who lied to me are otherwise being honest"
I mean yeah I wish representation were better. Too many regional representatives are boomers stuck in the past. I was in Shenzhen in 2019 though and met a bunch of cool queer folks though.
What? I was just watching a show the other day with a trans hostess on Chinese national TV. Her name is Jin Xing and she's very well known and her show draws 100 million viewers regularly
It was a massacre.
I suppose those police officers just set themselves on fire then?
Literally the only thing I know about this movie is that the main character is gay, Disney really tried to make that a selling point.
This post is about a movie from a year ago. Was the whole point to do some kind of weird roundabout "China bad" post?
Went from a valid criticism of rainbow capitalism to straight up sinophobia immediatly.
Several movies being "the first one with an openly gay character" when there's maybe a minor reference to it while donating to republicans until an especially stupid one decided to wage a personal campaign against them.
What do you think projecting means? Are you saying I'm doing rainbow capitalism lmao
According to out.com there are 17 and most of them have the representation of either it being a backhanded reference to them being queer or being on screen for all of 3 seconds. Oh lawd jesus. So oppressive.
Just a bunch of whiny people who are so incredibly insecure with their own sexuality that they think someone else could turn them gay. Probably because they spend more time than they want to admit fantasizing about sucking cock.
Sorry. As a gay dude I am just so phenomenally tired of hearing the most represented group on the planet whine about being "under-represented" or having to be "forced to watch gay people, THINK OF THE KIDS" when shit like Boss Baby is created where you have a literal infant lusting over women.
A transgender person*
Just saying “a transgender” is weird
The world would lose its mind and string up the director for child abuse.
The director of Leon the Professional should've unironically been strung up for child abuse.
also it's still a disney movie they aren't going to show gay porn or anything
Nothing like the heroes who write the uncut fast and furious movies.
2032: "Disneys first openly gay sex worker character gets 2 seconds of screentime in the new movie!"
The Mitchells vs the machines did it best. It was a great and entertaining story and I loved all the characters. Perhaps Disney should just make a story that's worth telling?
