Liberal idpol only serves the interests of the bourgeois members of the oppressive communities it professes to “help”.
You cannot be “for the gays” if you make the lives of the homeless worse. LGBTQ are significantly over-represented when it comes to experiencing homelessness and facing other associated dangers like sexual abuse, drug abuse etc.
This is a trend present in all aspects of society - social oppression of all kinds (sexual, gender, racial, religious) is worse for the economically downtrodden (which are the vast majority) and this obfuscation of the class dynamic only helps the already most well-off in those communities.
Class reductionism definitely exists and it’s wrong - social problems won’t disappear even if economic inequality does. But ending the class struggle will help 90% of the socially oppressed unlike liberal idpol which only helps the affluent (in any material way).
PS - As I was writing this, I had a realisation of what this looks like in practice. China is a socially conservative country - the media is more heteronormative, patriarchal etc. than the American one (which itself wasn’t anything great a decade ago). But over the past 20ish years, the real wages of people in China has gone up 4-5 times. I’m willing to bet that this has improved the lives of all kinds of minorities in China far more than American idpol has.
China is a socially conservative country - the media is more heteronormative, patriarchal etc.
It is less patriarchal than the West by far
https://www.scmp.com/news/article/1185834/mainland-chinese-women-top-world-holding-senior-business-roles-survey-shows
The same is true of Russia despite the return of misogynistic attitudes to women under capitalist restoration they're still lightyears ahead of the West.
Around 20% of all CEOs in Russia are women. Although this figure has remained stable for the past several years, it is still approximately 4.5 timeshigher than the global average.
https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/ru/Documents/research-center/women-ceo-2020-18-03-en.pdf
Compare this to US or Europe
Women hold fewer than 5% of CEO positions in US and Europe
https://www.ft.com/content/1090105c-fb7b-11e8-aebf-99e208d3e521
When you smash existing conditions and provide a material basis for people they thrive to the best of their ability.
You can scrabble out about in capitalism trying to protect yourself in IDPol to reach the full expression of your individual self as a... black Mexican and Trans bisexual that wants to get a promotion into producing Drone missiles
However most oft than not you'll find this expression of your individualism as a further alienating point of capitalism. Another box to silo you into to divorce yourself from the collective. Another box to receive better targetted ads.
Class is the only thing that binds the proletariat together and it's why a lot of this IDPol shit came out of the anticommunist PostModernists who are diametrically opposed to Modernism (Marx)
It's why loneliness is such a huge thing in capitalist societies now. How dogshit of a society must you have created where loneliness is an epidemic
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/01/23/798676465/most-americans-are-lonely-and-our-workplace-culture-may-not-be-helping
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/biohack-your-brain/202102/how-social-isolation-and-loneliness-impact-brain-function
"Having women in the top jobs will add more balanced views to the decision-making process, and we can understand our female customers better,"
ok neoliberal
We live under neoliberalism what other metric do you propose we use when looking societies that were socialist countries when looking at womens emancipation?
Can't speak for China since I don't really know but you are extremely wrong about Russia lol I don't think you understand the orthodox church and its power.
You're also using women in CEO positions as an indicator which... Is just a horrible indicator and unironically liberal idpol.
Yes I'm aware of the church's return to a firm pillar of the state
CEO positions as an indicator which
CEOs hold much more power under capitalist society.
Is just a horrible indicator and unironically liberal idpol.
It's unironically how liberals define equality and even under this metric they fall short of Russia and China - which was my point
Not even the most ridiculous of liberals would define equality as simply how many CEOs of each gender there are, looking at nothing more. It's the worst metric.
It's not a question women's rights and especially LGBTQ+ rights are better overall in northern Europe and the US. It's not even close. In some metrics, like participation in science or high administrative positions, they're a little bit better for women in general although the pay gap is even worse. But for the life and expression of the millions of women and LGBTQ+ it's really horrible. Do you have any idea how common wife murder is in Russia? There was even a rather famous streamer who killed his wife on stream after abusing her video after video, but of course it didn't matter, because "light" domestic abuse was decriminalized recently, again in a country with a severe wife murder and abuse problem. Or maybe ask a Russian person here how terrible it is for LGBTQ+ people. Orrrrr look at the treatment of Pussy Riot, another very publicized case. It's ridiculous to try and pass off Russia today as a bastion of women's rights, or even at the same level as most other developed countries, it simply isn't and it really isn't a good look to promote it as such.
Now if you are aware of the church's return, then why are you pretending they're "light years ahead"?
You literally just did the "more women CEOs" meme. I expected better from you Joey wtf.
I stand by it - that's where power lies in liberal society and OP is claiming Russia and China are patriarchal (despite power residing in more womens hands in those nations)
@Pezevenk makes the point about domestic abuse rates but when i googled domestic abuse rates US and Russia were similar at about 1 in 4 for women
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1053986/russia-families-with-domestic-violence/
https://www.ncadv.org/statistics
@Pezevenk also made the point about LGBT rights and sure LGBT rights are better in Germany or France....But those societies are part of NATO and have murdered hundreds of thousands of people across the ME in the last 2 decades. By sheer numbers alone (for example 2% of British people identify as LGBT ) so for every 100 people the West has killed they've killed 2 LGB people.
So if we look at I raq where 2.5 million people were killed you're looking at 62500 LGB people dead.
Not including Somalia, Yemen (27 million people starving), Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
So.... are we supposed to celebrate the liberal feminism the LGBT friendliness in select parts of London/France and Berlin or the maternity packages of Sweden or Germany when their societies are engaged in wholesale slaughter abroad to subordinate the world to the West
And as horrific as the homophobic, machismo and misogynistic environment Russia has created since capitalist restoration...Have they killed anywhere near 62500 LGB people?
With the improvement of material conditions societies morality changes and societies give ever more rights (sexual rights, rights to women, LGBT rights etc.)
The material conditions of Nato nations are one of forcible extraction of resources from the global south whilst the West arms jihadis and dictators and keeping them impoverished etc. - which allows them to further develop rights for their citizens (womens rights/LGBT rights etc.)
@Pezevenk makes the point about domestic abuse rates but when i googled domestic abuse rates US and Russia were similar at about 1 in 4 for women
Except domestic abuse is actually treated as completely more normal in Russia in much greater rates so they are never reported. It is literally not even illegal. Google wife killing rates.
@Pezevenk also made the point about LGBT rights and sure LGBT rights are better in Germany or France…But those societies are part of NATO and have murdered hundreds of thousands of people across the ME in the last 2 decades.
What does that have to do with the acceptance of LGBTQ+ within these societies compared to Russia? I never said they should be celebrated, both countries can just sink as far as I'm concerned. But that doesn't mean they aren't more tolerant of LGBTQ+ people. As a bisexual person I know that if I was in Iran forced gender conversion would be the good case scenario. But if the EU attacked Iran because Macron got pissy or whatever the fuck I'd side with Iran no questions asked, just like I side with Palestine over Israel. It doesn't mean I don't recognize that gay rights over there are atrocious, and that they are much better in the EU. But it's not the only important thing in the world. You are presenting two completely different issues. It's completely incoherent to claim that a society is more or less patriarchal depending on how many people they've killed for whatever reason. By that yardstick then I guess the US is both an extremely antifeminist society because of all the women they have killed but also an extremely feminist country because of all the abusers and rapists that they also accidentally killed as well.
Even your two examples here are not tainted by the blood thirsty west: who knows what Russian society would look like without the Wests support for Yeltsin (and the subsequent looting of Russia) or the coup of Irans democracy in 53
Iran probably wouldnt have retreated in theocracy and with Russia the subsequent mass death brought on from shock privatisation probably wouldnt have brought on the masses demanding the return of the Church as a pillar of the state and strong conservatism and machismo culture your(read homophobic)
My point was the West spreads barbarism across the globe then smells their own farts over Idpol shit like lighting their Mi6 up in rainbow colours whilst they finance jihadis in Syria
Right but you realise you are now arguing for a completely different position. You started off saying Russia is a far less patriarchal society. Now your position is that is the fault of the west that it is like that. Like, I'm not 100% comfortable with assigning every bad thing that can happen to any country ever as the singular fault of Americans as if there is nothing internal going on and the rest of the world is just mindless pawns of the US with no agency but you are mostly right in that. But again, it's not what anyone here was arguing about. It's like you are always trying to convince someone the west is bad at all costs. Yes, I know, I 100% agree, you don't have to try and convince me. But this doesn't mean that Russia or Iran or whatever are less patriarchal societies than western ones. That is simply not true. I'm not debating the merits of the west or something..
I agree mostly, but can we please not do this:
I’m willing to bet that this has improved the lives of all kinds of minorities in China far more than American idpol has.
Those aren't the only two options firstly, and secondly LGBT rights are undeniably better in the West in general. They're still no where near good, but still.
Feminism and Marxism are not either/or propositions. Also the Spartacus League is eww. They're the only group in ok with being negative and sectarian about, cuz they suck.
Edit: the American, not German Spartacus League, if anyone gets specific.
Full disclaimer: I have no idea what these groups are but the article isnt awful and is referencing liberal feminism, not proletarian feminism.
I'm not shitting on you, but rather the author and the group.
She literally just attacks "feminism". Not liberal feminism or bourgeois feminism, just feminism.
We can be as tankie and anti-idpol as we like, and still see feminism as basically a good thing. Obviously capitalist feminism is very limited and needs to accept class as an important point of subjugation for women (and all people).
still see feminism as basically a good thing
It is impossible to be a "comrade" without being a feminist, these degenerate redditors like Dead Pundits Society are not actually communists they're just weird nerds
I'm not going to lie. Liberal feminism has been a bit shit to me at times. It would be super satisfying to go all "fuck feminism", but obviously we tankies need to fight against that unproductive and selfish feeling.
Yep, you cannot be intersectional if you don't consider class the primary (not only) axis of oppression. Otherwise you only help the bourgeois materially, while condemning everyone else to find solace in 'symbols'.
Liberal idpol isnt completely useless though, it does give representation.
Which to me when I was young and confused would've been real nice to see a television show where LGBT were given a realistic portrayal instead of....whatever the fuck 90s television and movies were.
