how do you even make that leap in logic
oh wait, i know!
spoiler
it's because they're white supremacists lmao
Or it could be because alongside Black Nationalists movements there has always been movements of racial segregation alongside it who wreck the perception of it? Or even when you have non revolutionary, but still prominent people like Ali saying "blue birds with blue birds red birds with red birds" it can get a little muddy.
Why? Because being a minority doesn't automatically make you revolutionary.
I've mentioned this before, but as a white person growing up in the US, it's amazing how it's impressed on you that the Panthers were just the mirror image of the KKK, and really really angry on top of it all. Even mainstream movies like Forrest Gump hit on this. They're the "black racists".
Then I get older and learned for myself and I was like, wow, the Panthers were fucking cool and based af. They worked with groups of all races.
If you go historically at least, the more nationalist Marcus Garvey did associate and collaborate with the KKK because they shared views of racial seperatism, as opposed to the "less nationalist" W.E.B. DuBois who believed in racial harmony and condemned cooperation with the KKK.
I do doubt that's what most of them are getting at, thoguh
They're idealists without a materialist understanding of power.
"nazis are bad because they have bad ideas" - a radlib who agrees with fascism on everything except their "ideas"
Isn't nationalism just always bad? It's fundamentally exclusionary & hostile with no positive aspects as far as I'm aware.
You should read up on black nationalism and the theory surrounding it. It shouldn't be seen as a black equivalent to white nationalism.
:ira: There is a major difference between colonized nationalism and coloniser nationalism. One is the right to national self determination, the other is the right to oppress others
The national question is more complex with the decolonization context and anti-imperial context, because opposing the nationalism of the oppressed group supports the dominance of their rulers and their reactionary nationalism. These are two different things which we both call by "nationalism", one is the self-determination ideology, the other is the reactionary nationalist chauvinism. Their relationship is dialectical.
There is a lot of nuance to this and there are limits and varied conditions. The goal however is the destruction of the power structure of national oppression in all cases.
The works I recommend include:
Lenin "The Right of Nations to Self-Determination" (which answers Luxemburg on this topic directly and is not long)
Stalin "Marxism and the National Question"
Fanon "The Wretched of the Earth"
This is probably gonna be a hot take, but I believe that everyone has the right the nation, even the descendants of colonizers. I mean like yeah if you’re first generation and literally having to kill indigenous people to secure a nation there for yourself, then you have zero fucking right to do that because you’re negatively impacting someone else’s right to self determination. Like having a nation in and of itself isn’t a bad thing, it’s just when it extends beyond patriotism and starts moving into chauvinist and oppressive territory that it becomes a problem. Like as soon you start taking away someone else’s right to live in their own nation peacefully, then you’re crossing the line from good thing to bad thing. At least that’s my understanding, feel free to publicly execute me if I did a bad, I’m a settler and my understanding of racial/national issues comes solely from a materialist world view lol
radlibs think daryl davis is brave while thinking marcus garvey is an enabler
its interesting how white people always flip out over black nationalism like we all have farrakhan implants or something (although black nationalism is more than just farrakhan whose horrible) its like when white people would rant to me about al sharpton in 2012 like ??? //feels like some discovery channel esque dehumanizing BS where white people, regardless of ideology sometimes fixate on these mythical white hysterical ideas of U R B A N identity and its definitely a hefty source for concern trolling black nationalism even from a lEfTisT angle
this thread is about to get reaaaalll normal
black nationalism is bad, because it’s a form of nationalism
decolonization is actually the same as colonization, I'm smart
Nations have existed before capitalism and they will continue to exist afterwards. They’re built on shared culture, ethnicity, language, and territory. While all of these can certainly be influenced by capitalism, saying that it just straight up won’t exist under communism and we’ll all just be white people with different shades of skin is fucking stupid.
Isn't that because black nationalism is seen as non-egalitarian by a lot of people? Like get mad at the bourgouisie, but not at just all white people or whatever.
