Pointing out that there are no revolutionary leftist groups in the U.S. is a fact, and pointing out that this makes a revolutionary approach unrealistic is a basic inference. Neither of these are excuses, especially if someone is pursuing some other path to socialism.
I wasn't saying your point was a reason not to get involved. But the constant defeatism of "enter org here" doesn't do exactly what I would, is a way to ignore how malleable each org is and how much influence one person can have. You want to make the org more militant organize a school night about militancy in socialism.
Assuming that doesn't make it realistic right now. If I think the only way to get to Tierra del Fuego is by plane, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly able to go there. I don't own a plane, or have access to one, or money to buy a ticket on one, etc. There are preliminary steps I need to take before taking that plane trip is realistic.
If you honestly think it's revolution or bust, the task is to identify the preliminary steps of starting a revolutionary organization and work on those. Some of those preliminary steps likely overlap with comrades who think there are other paths to socialism.
If the only way to get to Tierra del Fuego is by plane this remains true whether you have access to a plane or not. Whether it is realistic or not is immaterial. And other people who are offering you bus passes are not going to get the job done
Given that neither approach has thus far been effective in the imperial core, it's baffling to me that to me that you would consider electoralism so self-evidently realistic given while revolution is a pie in the sky idea
There are modern examples of countries taking big steps leftwards via elections (Venezuela, Bolivia).
Almost everyone in the U.S. agrees that elections are a legitimate way to shape politics.
A year ago we saw someone who self-identified as a Democratic Socialist win an unprecedented string of victories in an open presidential primary.
Democratic Socialists hold multiple lower offices and keep winning more.
Electoralism has previously delivered material gains for the working class (e.g., the New Deal, local minimum wage increases) as well as material progress on a variety of social issues (e.g., the Civil Rights Act, state efforts to legalize gay marriage and marijuana).
I consider a revolution to be pie in the sky stuff (at least right now) because:
The SRA -- not even a militant leftist organization, but maybe the closest thing to one -- has only 10,000 members.
The vast majority of people who might someday (if you squint hard) be part of a revolutionary movement are not armed.
The number of people who consider an armed revolution here in America to be a legitimate way to shape politics is low.
That's precisely the problem. Time, energy and money that would be better spend on organizing are spent chasing electoral victories
Whatever Bernie identified as, his politics were stolidly Social Democratic. He also was hamstrung by capital and it's institutions, and there's no reason to believe that had he won he would have been able to bring about even Social Democratic reforms given entrenched opposition within the Democratic Party, the media, and of course capital itself.
While some of these people are indeed actual socialists, and their winning office is in fact a good thing, I don't see this leading to socialism writ large. Historically, socialists have held lower office in the US before but this did not lead inevitably to socialism.
I support anything that materially improves the lives of the working class, but again, the New Deal is not socialism. A minimum wage is not socialism. Legalizing weed is not socialism.
If your goal is to bring about Social Democratic reforms to capitalism, then fine, we've seen it happen often enough in industrialized countries that I believe it is possible through electoralism, but I don't find it at all convincing that socialism will be brought about through electoral politics in the United States.
What armed group would you recommend?
If you have to ask, is a revolutionary approach realistic right now?
People will make excuses to sit at home not doing anything for any reason.
Pointing out that there are no revolutionary leftist groups in the U.S. is a fact, and pointing out that this makes a revolutionary approach unrealistic is a basic inference. Neither of these are excuses, especially if someone is pursuing some other path to socialism.
I wasn't saying your point was a reason not to get involved. But the constant defeatism of "enter org here" doesn't do exactly what I would, is a way to ignore how malleable each org is and how much influence one person can have. You want to make the org more militant organize a school night about militancy in socialism.
I'm not making excuses for not doing anything
There's no org that fits exactly what I want to do so I don't join any.
You know you could become the change you want to see in the org? It's not like PSL and DSA are like working at Amazon.
Why do you assume I'm not doing anything? I'm active in my union, I'm a DSA member and I'm trying to leave and join PSL
The way I read the thread seemed like you were waiting for a militarized org to join before joining any of them. My apologies. Good job on your work!
If you don't believe electoralism will work, it is, in fact, the only approach.
Assuming that doesn't make it realistic right now. If I think the only way to get to Tierra del Fuego is by plane, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly able to go there. I don't own a plane, or have access to one, or money to buy a ticket on one, etc. There are preliminary steps I need to take before taking that plane trip is realistic.
If you honestly think it's revolution or bust, the task is to identify the preliminary steps of starting a revolutionary organization and work on those. Some of those preliminary steps likely overlap with comrades who think there are other paths to socialism.
If the only way to get to Tierra del Fuego is by plane this remains true whether you have access to a plane or not. Whether it is realistic or not is immaterial. And other people who are offering you bus passes are not going to get the job done
Whether it's realistic is the most important question if you're assuming that's your only option.
Simply insisting that it's the only way will get us nowhere.
Given that neither approach has thus far been effective in the imperial core, it's baffling to me that to me that you would consider electoralism so self-evidently realistic given while revolution is a pie in the sky idea
I consider electoralism to be realistic because:
I consider a revolution to be pie in the sky stuff (at least right now) because:
Responding point by point:
If your goal is to bring about Social Democratic reforms to capitalism, then fine, we've seen it happen often enough in industrialized countries that I believe it is possible through electoralism, but I don't find it at all convincing that socialism will be brought about through electoral politics in the United States.
Hell if I know, I'm just rationalizing my DSA entryism