i tried searching through some databases and no like actual research reports came up on it, so like can we just use that as a be-all-end-all?
idk if that kind of thing exists. i did convince a lib on reddit the other day simply by pointing out "no muslim country in the world agrees with the idea that there is a genocide happening in china, why is it that the only people who care about muslims are white christian countries with a history of brutally slaughtering muslims?"
and thats really the strongest narrative for the truth right now. if there was a genocide against muslims, wouldn't there be at least one muslim country that would acknowledge it? why isn't there currently? make the genocide narrative people explain to you why no muslim countries agree with their narrative
I have tried this, and they just retort that all of those countries must be in China's pocket for economic reasons and helping them cover it up.
A good one is just talking about yemen. "If these politicians care about human rights so much, there's something very easy they can do: stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, stop giving Saudi Arabia intelligence, etc. American arm companies have made 13 billion dollars off of the Yemen war. 20 million Yemenis need human rights assistance according to the UN. But they don't. So I don't really trust that they genuinely care about those other Muslims." Denying a purported genocide looks to the regular person similar to holocaust denial. It's a lot easier to be like "look, idk what's going on over there, but there's another group of Muslims that western countries could help much easier, but they don't. They should. Why don't they? Isn't that weird?"
This is the only answer that does it for me personally. As someone who's very cautious to jump to conclusions, I basically have given up understanding what's going on (maybe the propaganda got to me?) But luckily I can be 100% sure that A. America genocides muslims every day and B. if China is genociding muslims too there's nothing we can reasonably do and C. if an action should be taken, it should be to stop US militarism. This is why I've tried not to get wrapped up in this struggle session, because I think any leftist can unite behind this idea.
Of course this logic assumes that you don't actively support bombing the middle east.
The best thing is that the "camps" were all shut down like a year and a half ago anyways so it's not even like it's a current problem...
There was some internal pushback against them and the XAR government switched from detention to poverty relief, jobs programs, and education. Which is why you see the narrative pivoting to things like "these people have jobs at cotton plantations and cotton is genocide".
Most of them do that, but every now and again the person you're talking to will go, "wow, yeah, that doesnt actually make any sense. maybe im being lied to." and even if you dont directly convince the person you're speaking to, there are tons of other people who will see that exchange and look into it
At that point they're just racist as fuck and theres not much you can do about them.
Tbh it is extremely unlikely to change the mind of the person you are arguing against, especially in the debate itself. The best you can hope for is convincing bystanders and maybe planting a seed in the arguers mind.
Do people even publish peer reviewed articles on things like that? Is there a "Proof of Rohingya genocide" article in Nature or something?
they would use zenz if they had something better ...
It's amazing how everything keeps coming back to Zenz. Imagine using the word of one guy, who has an obvious axe to grind with China and outside of that is a reactionary chirstian, as your source that a genocide is happening.
I like calling out people that call me a genocide denier for also being genocide deniers because abortion and birth control are genocide too according to their sources.
you know, its really difficult to say whether iraq has weapons of mass destruction. idk dude. i think taking a totally neutral stance on this issue is the right way to go, because nothing bad could possibly happen as a result of this narrative
The official consensus
The official consensus by the US and its allies, yes. The official consensus among muslim countries is, "what genocide, what the fuck are you talking about dude"
the official consensus is that there is a genocide happening
No, it’s not. Practically nobody is saying this outside of the US and five eyes.
The official consensus
The Ministry of Consensus's official consensus*
Thinking the US would ever invade and/or engage in a hot war type scenario with China is baby brain shit. Also, to think the US would need to conjure up a global genocide conspiracy in China to engage in a cold war (which some would argue has already been going on since the 60's) is also dumb dumb shit.
China & the US are in a historically unprecedented, globally encompassing and intertwined economic human centipede who's existence depends on one another and as long as the countries respective oligarchs pockets are getting greased nothing is going to happen. And no, this isn't the same as "well everyone thought after WW1 there wouldn't be a WW2 because our economies were so interconnected diarrhea noises"
I share the same sentiment above - having a position on this is pointless. You're weird if you're outspoken about this trying to prove a genocide - you're even weirder defending China. The only fact we have at hand is that the US kills Muslims every day. If China is doing the same, we couldn't (and fucking shouldn't) do anything about it. All we can do is fight to end the US war machine. It's a pointless thought experiment.
look dude, fundamentally i just think the truth is important. thats all there is to it. stop rambling at me you fuckin weirdo
Yeah no shit and that’s exactly what the comment was aiming for that you made your goober comparison to the Iraq war on
"we should push back against bullshit narratives spun by the US, because historically when they take root it leads to disaster" is pretty simple to understand, idk how you're having so much trouble with this
It’s really not at all difficult to say because even the most exaggerated claims don’t rise to meet the level of genocide. There’s not even a question of whether significant numbers of people are being killed. There aren’t, even people like Zenz aren’t alleging that this is happening. The most egregious accusations are sterilization which there is no evidence of, and mostly even the people alleging “sterilization” (again like Zenz) say they are actually talking about IUDs which is not sterilization at all.
Looks like a standard domestic intelligence sweep in an area with an active terrorist insurrection (Bulletin 20 indicates via a quick estimate that at least 10,000 active islamist insurrectionaries exist in the region.)
The only document I see that posits any major concern is bulletin 14, but I'd need to know if those are actual standard weekly numbers or the number of suspicious persons caught up in the initial sweep (I suspect the latter looking at the numbers in bulletin 20.) A lot also depends on if "sent to vocational training" means generally detained for a year or applied to one of the day facilities we know exist, and in what proportion.
Additionally, the described camp conditions, if adhered to, are actually better than I had expected. Equal to a low security reformist prison in Europe. Note for example that communication with family is mandated.
Now I'm not saying that this is a good thing. China has clearly detained at least fifty thousand people for at least a year in a re-education camp, and is going about this in a way I'd deeply criticise if it was, say, coalition forces in Iraq (oh wait, they did far worse).
There are serious issues here about forced cultural assimilation and labour with people who might be extremist but not active politically. Additionally I have no doubt that Han Chauvinism drives wrongful arrests and police excesses take place in these facilities because even in China ACAB.
I think there's a lot of room to criticise these facilities for what they are, an overly authoritarian and wrong-headed way to secure a population that is ripe for CIA and Saudi radicalisation (And which has been badly managed by CPC administration in the area, these things never appear in a vacuum ) while acknowledging that this isn't a genocide and is a better and more humane counter-insurgency strategy than the US has ever done
...thats not a good metric for assessing allegedly ongoing genocides
Academia is expected, as well as some other organizations, to work on those questions though if it is going on since 6 years at least. Though in terms of torture during the Iraq war (so US torture and black sites and all that), it took nearly 12 years to have sensible reports produced within the US. Outside of it, funnily enough, it was a tad faster.
Not that I've seen and one of the first "studies" that kicked off this whole thing was disturbingly fast and loose with numbers, but also not nearly as toxic. Like it describes mandatory night classes and things. Oh no!
The thing is, I'm not sure there's a full scientific field devoted to these kinds of things, not at least one with a robust academic journal process. I could be wrong, though.
Statistical analysis of birth and death rates, missing population, etc. are the most likely to get accurate numbers, but they rely on long term trends.
One of the biggest problems is that the poverty alleviation programs brought Uyghur birth rates closer to urban birthrates and increased life expectancy really quickly (less dead babies from lack of healthcare and good family planning), so obviously they're doing hysterectomies and forced abortions...
And no, they don't actually go there and ask people about why birth rates are going down and life expectancy is going up.
I mean, you can report the rise in population for thr region but the libs will say it is proof of some further evil.
The phrase that comes to mind is that you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. It can work sure. No lib belives this because they carefully weighed the evidence though. They know china bad, so this must be true. You would have to convince them that china good actually and they would adjust their ideas to reflect their new beliefs
proof of some further evil
Uyghur clone factories :agony-shrooms:
There are peer reviewer articles that argue for white supremacy. The "sacred institutions" of the west will just lie and make up bullshit to support their economic interests.
You know... you know there are a lot of sources for that right? It’s not comparable
Almost like it's really hard to hide the fact that you're rounding a huge percentage of the population up and sending them to camps. Even when your boarders are closed...which Xinjiang's are not
