I've been speaking with other more informed communists and they've told me that none actually exist. Is this true?
China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate
North Korea: Undemocratically ruled by the Kim dynasty. Jong un indulges lavishly at the expense of his citizens, ordering millions in fine wine and trips from Denis Rodman. They might be the most socialist though, as Juche seems to otherwise be democratic.
Cuba: Sanctions have taken a massive toll, but even taking that into account the country still has its own problems. They have massive food shortages and inventory probs and aren't self sufficient after 60+ years. Why couldn't they've use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery? The Soviets supported them heavily. They seem to be incredibly mismanaged or corrupt
To answer this question, we have to dive into the meaning of the main terms. What does it mean for a country to be communist or socialist?
To start with the term communist: calling a country communist has meant it's run by a communist party, not that it has implemented communism as a classless, stateless society (which could not exist in the context of distinct nations in the first place, by definition). By this definition, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam are communist countries.
PS, anyone saying something like "real communism hasn't been tried" doesn't even understand the words they're using and is not themselves a socialist or communist. Instead, they're a confused liberal.
Next, socialist, and the idea of a socialist country. There is actually not a shared and specific definition of what would make a country socialist per se, it's more of a project to deestablish the capitalist class and put the working class in power. Many socialists disagree with one another about whether a given country is socialist, and what is really underlying their thoughts is usually just whether or not they think a country is attempting to deestablish capitalism and/or is making sufficient progress in doing so.
In terms of your specific examples, I'll offer some critiques.
China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate
No socialist expects that the country they operate in after revolution will be free of having to work, for there to be no workplace abuses, for there to be no pollution or healthcare problems, or even for corporations to be immediately deestablished. In reality, what is expected is for the ruling party to begin a long process of undermining capitalist relations. One example is to place human needs into guarantees of the state rather than the whims of private corporations. Another is to quell the anarchy of the market through state controls on production. It is expected that the ruling party will rapidly address the key isy that drove the revolution, which has historically been land reform. An example of this in your list is that every person in Vietnam has a right to an amount of land to farm rice for themselves and their family.
You should also consider that these countries do not operate in a vacuum. Instead, they must fight to survive in a world dominated by extreme international violence, typically from capitalist countries. Therefore, countries like China and Vietnam have adopted specific strategies to deal with this intentional influence, i.e. to combat imperialists. China's example is one of economic entanglement and to allow private markets in special economic zones, which will allow tons of capitalist elements and social relations to exist there. This strategy is working out relatively well, however: China has advanced concentrated industry and imperialist countries (e.g. the USA) that usually bomb or sanction their way into countries premised on socialist projects cannot do so without devastating themselves. Vietnam was forced into a similar situation but with less leverage and concentration of industry. This is a result of the legacy of being genocidally bombed by the imperialist powers during their struggle for national liberation. They won that war but arguably lost much of the peace, as the imperialist countries, despite stealing so much from Vietnam, saddled them with large debts as a condition for ending the war. Such debts were used to force more capitalist relations, especially foreign ownership, into Vietnam. This is a common story around the world, where most countries are violently bullied into carrying large debts in order to lose control of their own countries' economies. With all that said, Vietnam is still riledy by a communist party and does distinguish itself from surrounding countries in how it pushes back against capitalist relations and prioritizes its people.
North Korea: Undemocratically ruled by the Kim dynasty. Jong un indulges lavishly at the expense of his citizens, ordering millions in fine wine and trips from Denis Rodman. They might be the most socialist though, as Juche seems to otherwise be democratic.
Nearly all of this is liberal fairytales with little basis. The Kims have high roles in the party but don't act like dictators, more like figureheads. The primary challenge for North Korea isn't the Kims at all, it's the continued occupation of South Korea by the imperialists. Did you know that the Korean War is ongoing and that America won't let South Korea end it? North Korea is brutally sanctioned at the direction of the United States, and this is where its poverty originates. NK outperformed SK for decades (SK was a military dictatorship at the time) and only ran into famine conditions when the USSR fell and the US imposed an all-encompassing, genocidal sanctions regime.
I don't think discussing Juche or the NK political system in general would mean anything until the core misunderstandings are dealt with.
Cuba: Sanctions have taken a massive toll, but even taking that into account the country still has its own problems.
Socialism is not when a country has no problems. Socialists are ruthlessly locked in on practicalies, not utopian wishes.
They have massive food shortages and inventory probs and aren't self sufficient after 60+ years.
This is hardly independent of the sanctions regime and Cuba did not have food security issues for decades until, again, the USSR fell and the US instituted massively broadened sanctions.
Why couldn't they've use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery?
They did. Who told you they didn't?
The Soviets supported them heavily.
The Soviets traded with them when the imperialist powers were brutally sanctioning them. Cuba was not a client state being provided with alms. It was a recently decolonized country that had just survived a revolution and needed to build in the context of being treated like one big sugar plantation, brothel, and casino for Americans. They had to develop industry from the ground up and they routinely outperform the richest country in the world on health metrics, their healthcare system, and healthcare research.
They seem to be incredibly mismanaged or corrupt
According to who?
an org they cited has been awarded the Democracy Award and gets funded by the uhhh
the National Endowment for Democracy
Can you be more specific about which 10 principles? Bunch of different people claim to have such a thing.
I would head some things off in the last question, though. Why should we want a "normal" society? Shouldn't we fight for liberation, which necessarily falls outside current norms? Shouldn't we allow societies freedom to structure themselves in different ways under a framework of liberation? Imposing a "normal" society reminds me of Residential Schools, the attempt to destroy indigenous societies through Western indoctrination and removal from their families.
The other thing to think about is the meaning of democracy, as the term is laden with a huge amount of propaganda and weaponization of thought patterns. I see Westerners call projects they work on democratic because sometimes people get to vote on parts of it even though power truly rests with, say, the people funding it or the people using interpersonal influence to direct the actual work to the exclusion of the voters. I see those same Westerners use cliches of "authoritarianism" to describe countries that actually respond to people's needs while their own country ignores their own needs but buys their complacency with a limited voting system. I think we should question how the term is used and what we really mean by it, as well as whether our definitions of it mean that a space is actually made better through adopting allegedly democratic practices. Does it involve the people? Does it give them sufficient power? Does it defend against oppression? Is it a tool of oppression? These questions must be answered before a particular idea of democracy can be implicitly considered a good thing.
As an example, I don't remember voting to or otherwise being able to use the existing system to prevent the genocide the Palestinian people, but most people seem to be very comfortable calling the US a democracy. I do remember being taught white supremacist narratives in school as if they were fact - do my peers that got duped participate in a democracy if they have been throughly propagandized? What if they have no time outside of work to investigate anything? Etc etc.
So you do fundamentally agree that democracy is good, correct? And you would be opposed to a society where a ruling class pretended it was sanctioned by the working class, right?
Anyway, here are the 10 principles as they were originally written. How do you feel about them?
- We must give our all in the struggle to unify the entire society with the revolutionary ideology of the Great Leader Kim Il Sung.
- We must honor the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung with all our loyalty.
- We must make absolute the authority of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
- We must make the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung's revolutionary ideology our faith and make his instructions our creed.
- We must adhere strictly to the principle of unconditional obedience in carrying out the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung's instructions.
- We must strengthen the entire party's ideology and willpower and revolutionary unity, centering on the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
- We must learn from the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung and adopt the communist look, revolutionary work methods and people-oriented work style.
- We must value the political life we were given by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung, and loyally repay his great political trust and thoughtfulness with heightened political awareness and skill.
- We must establish strong organizational regulations so that the entire party, nation and military move as one under the one and only leadership of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
- We must pass down the great achievement of the revolution by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung from generation to generation, inheriting and completing it to the end.
So you do fundamentally agree that democracy is good, correct?
I don't think you really read what I wrote, lol. I said that the entire concept of what is democratic should be challenged and questioned.
And you would be opposed to a society where a ruling class pretended it was sanctioned by the working class, right?
You'd have to make this coherent with a class analysis. If the ruling class is pretending to have the support of the working class, i.e. is not itself of the working class, then what class is ruling? There is no general answer to this question, you must apply it to a real country with its class divisions.
Anyway, here are the 10 principles as they were originally written. How do you feel about them?
They make me feel... bored? They were/are a line taken against perceived discontent factions, with the figure of Kim Il-Sung used as a cudgel to say, "shut the fuck up". I guess they also remind me of the silly things that ignorant Westerners believe about North Korea and of the power of choosing words during translation.
Regarding your complaint about the 10 principles, can you demonstrate that they were not translated to your personal preference? And does that mean, as they are written, you do object to them?
I understand that their existence is extremely inconvenient to you, as you are attempting to fall back on liberal identity politics in order to ignore them. But I would prefer it if you didn't attempt to dodge the question.
I didn't list a complaint. I'm just familiar with the fun that Westerners have with, for example, using the term "worship" when it is just as validly (arguably more valid given the lack of religious implications in general) translated as "respect" or "admire". Westerners are very gullible, you see, and love to think of themselves as superior to the Asian hordes, which includes constructing cartoonish ideas of designated enemy countries.
None of that list is inconvenient for me, lol. You seem to be talking to yourself and hyping yourself up because you think you have a slam dunk and in the process are failing to read or understand what I've written. Remember, my answer to your question of how I feel about them is that it makes me bored. Perhaps you should take a little more time to read what is written before claiming anyone is dodging, lol.
It looks like you're spamming this same question to others, seemingly without it being relevant to what they're talking about. Have you considered addressing anything I wrote in the comment you initially replied to? You didn't actually do that, you know.
In other words, you would have a problem with the country telling its people to worship a strong man, but you wouldn't have a problem with a strong man in general being put at the head of a state?
Do you believe the working class, in general, requires paternalism in order to correctly flourish?
Do you believe vocal criticism of a country's leader should be allowed or not?
In other words, you would have a problem with the country telling its people to worship a strong man, but you wouldn't have a problem with a strong man in general being put at the head of a state?
"Strong man" is another thought-terminating cliche used to denigrate designated enemy countries, or at least ones at which Western chauvinism is to be directed. Do you believe in Iraqi WMDs and justifying the US war of aggression there? Because you sound like the people who said "they hate us for our freedom", and so on. The point I keep making is that a more critical and informed approach must be taken in order to understand these topics.
I reject the premise of your question.
Do you believe the working class, in general, requires paternalism in order to correctly flourish?
I don't know what those things mean without a concrete grounding in real situations, like an example country. I've said this before, actually, and you didn't respond to it.
I think such questions serve to obfuscate rather than clarify precisely because they rely on abstractions into which hegemonic biases can be inserted.
Do you believe vocal criticism of a country's leader should be allowed or not?
Sure why not. Do you have any real questions about things?
That's great. Because you dodged the first two questions and only answered the third, can you tell me how the CCP, the North Korean dictatorship, and any other nominally socialist country that you want to include handles vocal criticism?
That's great. Because you dodged the first two questions
I haven't dodged any questions, lol. I'm being very direct with you. You may want to take a moment to ask whether you are projecting, as your pattern in this conversation has been to ignore basically everything I say and literally every question I've asked and to instead try to belabor the point you really want to make, thigh you're too afraid to state it directly. It's very clear that you want to stay in your comfort zone, which is apparently silly tropes about North Korea, and no realities or other humans you're talking to are gonna get in the way of that!
You might as well just talk to yourself, since it's only your voice you want to hear.
can you tell me how the CCP, the North Korean dictatorship, and any other nominally socialist country that you want to include handles vocal criticism?
Nope you have shown yourself to be here in bad faith and I'm not going to explain such a large topic to you until you figure out how to be honest with me (and probably yourself). Or maybe you can pay me to tutor you - combative, ignorant students cost extra btw.
Before you reach for your crutch of a "dodge", remind yourself that at no point have I offered to do the thing you seem to feel entitled to, which is for me to answer all of your questions while you ignore everything I tell you. I'm not your parent or your teacher, I'm not obligated to share knowledge that you refuse to digest.
PS I've said basically nothing about the CPC. I would recommend that you figure out how to communicate around one topic before expanding them. You already can't keep track of what I've said about North Korea or>!!< democracy.
Stop being disingenuous. "I am personally offended and I refuse to answer your question" is a dodge, not a response.
You just said you were okay with vocal criticism of the government, so how about it? To what degree should people be allowed to vocally criticize their government?
lol, you think I'm offended? I'm really just bored. I've been giving you chance after chance to engage just in case, but it eventually gets tedious - and indicates that good faith is not something you respond to. You seem to engage much more directly with people in this thread that you think you have bothered. Ask yourself if that's a healthy thing to do.
It's funny that you haven't learned that I don't actually care about your attempts at goading, either. Refer to my previous response to your question.
And I've given you a chance for you to explain how you are okay with criticism of the government, but when it comes to North Korea and the CCP you have suddenly gotten quiet.
Do you want to walk back your statement, and say that you are against criticism of the government? That is probably more in line with your actual beliefs.
Consult my previous answer, as you seem to have had trouble reading it.
You dodged the question so hard you would make a politician blush. If you're afraid of the questions, just say so.
You've got such Reddit brain that you think someone directly telling you no is a dodge, lol
What happens in the North Korean dictatorship when you criticize the strongman Kim Jong-Un? Can you point me to some vocal critics in that nation?
its a decent attempt ill give them that. They cited 2 sources!
from the CIA, so yeah its also really shit
you are being a wall, read and internalize instead of bleat and bitch
the ages of stalin's wives when he married was 22 for the first and 18 for the second
what kinda gotcha are you trying to pull?
Lida is who?
I just want to make fun of your gods, as you appear to be a cultist and not a leftist
Who the fuck is Lida
are you a moron who believes stalin married a preteen? Go ahead and show your ass, its the only thing you're capable of doing.
you said wives, and now youve just made up a phantom that doesn't exist
are you going to cite the CIA? Maybe Mossad this time!
The story is that he had a kid with her in exile, not that they were ever married, moron
Do you believe the working class, in general, requires paternalism in order to correctly flourish?
never has, never will, socialism hasn't had such a thing in its history. unless you change the definition to whatever you want.
Do you believe vocal criticism of a country's leader should be allowed or not?
no not if people like you are doing it. Make an actual criticism instead of being a chauvinist .
like a specific type like some fucking pokemon? You are the Chauvinist I wish to censor, if you think I have a problem with censorship you're a funny fuckin toddler.
I understand you don't have a problem with censorship. You are right wing.
"only right wing censor people because thats what fits my pop culture view of politics"
Scares me? You mean the debunked crap you've been spewing? Your only tactic since being shown to be a CIA parroting dronie has been the infantile method of calling everyone a bigoted nazi.
I honestly just get satisfaction from seeing libs and fascists thrown in prison. Also anyone who parrots CIA nonsense like you have.
Denounce the CIA citation and we'll talk.
"debunked"?
Okay... Then show me where it was debunked. And make sure you only reference sources that you would trust if I use them of a similar caliber.
Okay... Then show me where it was debunked. And make sure you only reference sources that you would trust if I use them of a similar caliber.
Citing the CIA, an organization dedicated to destroying all communist projects since it was created, I feel debunks your korean thread immediately (due to it being the only source you provided besides one with no sources of its own)
Show any evidence for the Stalin 'kid wife' one, primary sources please. I need you to provide your proof first.
thats literally the only things you have in this thread.
A common conspiracy theorist tactic is confusing claims with evidence. They think that they can debunk things by simply making more claims about them.
That's what you're doing. If the document has been debunked, it must be debunked on its own terms.
Otherwise, you are saying the exact same thing as the Nazi who insists that the CIA cannot be trusted because it is run by Jews, and Jews are known to be tricksters since the beginning of time. Do better than the Nazis.
If you can.
A common conspiracy theorist tactic is confusing claims with evidence. They think that they can debunk things by simply making more claims about them.
Literally what you've done the whole thread. Give me a non CIA source.
That's what you're doing. If the document has been debunked, it must be debunked on its own terms.
Controlled by a CIA organization dead set on lying about communism, its debunked on everyones terms.
Otherwise, you are saying the exact same thing as the Nazi who insists that the CIA cannot be trusted because it is run by Jews, and Jews are known to be tricksters since the beginning of time. Do better than the Nazis.
You must have an ideology made of glass if you react to everything with screaming that they're anti-semetic for doing the normal action of verifying sources
if you are so superior, manage to find an actual source.
God why am I arguing with this ideological child?
Can you be specific about what fundamental principles of democracy you question? You just said America doesn't really have a democracy, so you were implying that more democracy would be a good thing.
So you don't actually believe that? And if that's the case, why did you signal as if you did? It seems pretty disingenuous to me
Can you be specific about what fundamental principles of democracy you question?
I already wrote some out in my first reply to you. Do you have any thoughts on them?
You just said America doesn't really have a democracy, so you were implying that more democracy would be a good thing.
Incorrect on both counts. What I did was say that the language and concept itself are laden with propaganda and selective or incomplete application, raising serious doubts about what it even means.
An interesting aspect to your responses here is that you're repeatedly reading things that I didn't say while not recognizing the things I did say. This is very relevant my attempt to head off simplistic acceptance of, say, "democracy". The point is that there are a lot of propaganda narratives and unjustified (implicit) assumptions that tend to get made and your inability to have a conversation with me is a good example of this. You're clearly trying to slot what I'm saying to you into your existing framework, a precious epistemology, even when it doesn't really make sense. This is another thought pattern you'll have to leave behind if you want to have correct opinions or even just be capable of talking to other humans about politics.
So you don't actually believe that? And if that's the case, why did you signal as if you did? It seems pretty disingenuous to me
Having made no effort to understand my pretty simple and direct statements, you're deciding to blame me for your confusion, lol.
This situation is fairly simple: you think you're here to "own" your perceived enemies and are now reaching at straws because it's not going the way you hoped. Gotta find some way for me to be the bad guy, eh kid?
Okay, so regarding democracy, when you said you didn't vote to allow a genocide in Gaza, were you saying a vote should have been taken, thus making the United States a more democratic country?
If that's the case, then we agree that more democracy is good. If that's not the case, why did you bring it up?
Okay, so regarding democracy, when you said you didn't vote to allow a genocide in Gaza, were you saying a vote should have been taken, thus making the United States a more democratic country?
I was giving an example to challenge common presumptions about what is democratic and what something with that labels can then be used to justify. The idea is to get you to think critically and ask your own questions about what the true meaning of that label is by how it gets applied. It's not about what is simply true democracy and what is not. It's what function the term and concept serves in our societies, particularly Western ones where it is used chauvinistically and is full of contradictions. Nothing can be more "authoritarian" (the other half of this concept's dichotomy) than inflicting mass death and disposession and there isn't even a fig leaf of requiring informed consent from the people of the state that's supporting the genocide you see happening right in front of you. At the same time, the label of "democracy" is used everywhere to justify these dehumanizing, racist actions. Have you ever heard, "only democracy in the Middle East"? Have you ever wondered what makes an apartheid settler ethnostate democratic? What does it really mean?
The goal is to get you to critically engage with the tropes and thought-controlling cliches at work here. Your questions are full of them. It's clear you've never really questioned hegemonic thinking and at the moment you're being combative towards the idea of applying a little critical thinking or, God forbid, answering my questions or statements.
If that's the case, then we agree that more democracy is good. If that's not the case, why did you bring it up?
That last question is the only thing you should've said in reply to my first comment. An attempt to understand rather than an attempt to eagerly dismiss what you have never investigated.
I have answered that question twice now, though.
I would love to see an example of your own critical thinking:
Would you have preferred a vote, instead of the United States government unilaterally deciding to support the ethnic genocide of Gazans by Israel?
Me: writes paragraphs explaining my thoughts and answering your questions and ask a few questions, all of which you ignore.
You: write 1-2 sentences in response, usually just asking new questions rather than engage.
Sure buddy, I'm the scared one.
Would you have preferred a vote? Yes or no?
Brainless bluster just makes you look smart to stupid people.
Would you have preferred a vote? Yes or no?
Nobody should trust your advice on critical thinking if you can't even reach a simple conclusion.
"Would you have liked to vote on whether to have a genocide?? It's a simple question, coward!"
How is Maoo's answer to this completely made-up, idealist scenario supposed to prove or communicate anything? You might as well ask him what his opinion on unicorns is, and if he refuses to engage with that question you'll once again have caught him being scared!
You're phrasing a stupid question to make some incorrect critique of his point. How the fuck is anyone supposed to pose that genocide should have been debated as a vote.
Voting under a socialist organized society would be inherently making far more sane decisions. The wider thing Maoo was trying to say was that larger decisions of government should be made with the direct approval of the people. A socialist government, something the US is far from. And are you stupid enough to think the US is a democracy?
who the hell said anyone gets a direct democracy?
Ever heard of a Council Republic?
I'll answer it.
You're missing the point. You are equating "democracy" as "good". Your question is not relevant to the point being made. They are asking, what is good? What is democracy? And you're responding with "you must agree democracy is good".
Anyway, here are the 10 principles as they were originally written. How do you feel about them?
That's weird they wrote em in English
No, what's weird is you won't answer my question.
Perhaps you know that on one hand, if you condemn these, you will have become an apostate in the eyes of North Korea stans...
Condem what?, I have no idea what this is, or how it applies to DRPK governance. Some of the language is kinda sus but again its just standing alone out there, translated by whomever, and most importantly not written as legal language. Next you'll be wanting me to condemn the word authority or some such nonsense. You keep posting this like it's some sort of gotcha. The us constitution read uncritically seems nice but it is real shit.
Here read this for some commie law writing:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/12/05.htm
Unless you are admitting to not reading any of the previous posts before you replied, you know exactly what it is.
Instead of deflecting, let's talk about the 10 principles and whether you find them acceptable or not. I understand this might cause some discomfort for you, because for some reason, many leftists like to treat the doctrine of many countries like holy scripture that must not be condemned, or must be interpreted in a certain way. I'm not that kind of religious person, though.
It looks like you copy and pasted something from Wikipedia. If you could link the full translated legal document I'd be happy to look at it. Like the constitution I linked you, that's a document ratified by a Democratic body. The whatever you pasted is not anything really.
The ten principles of Communism as I know them are as follows. Spoiler cause its long:
spoiler
Do you believe Hitler ordered the Holocaust? Because you're starting to remind me of people who deny that.
Do you want to end the conversation by trolling? Is that your signal that you no longer wish to participate in it, as you are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the fact that you can't deny the existence of North Korea's cultlike laws?
Do you believe Hitler ordered the Holocaust? Because you're starting to remind me of people who deny that.
There's lots of paperwork that indicate that he did so I don't know what your point is
Please just provide an original source so I can engage with your issue. As of now it seems like you're the one trolling.
I don't see why I should go out of my way to post documentation a second time for an internet troll who thinks pictures of animal genitalia is an argument.
You're continuing to dodge the content of the 10 principles. If you don't like the translation, post your own. But tell me whether you support them or not.
Were these 10 principles ratified by any governing body in the DRPK? How were the codified? Is it literally just something from wikipedia?
Please tell me the garbage you posted is anything other than that.
Okay, I'm getting curious now because you are using Nazi talking points. You said you believe Hitler ordered the Holocaust because of the documents proving it... Can you show me your standard for evidence by producing these documents, so I can know how to better suit your requirements?
Hey, I think you're onto something there. Where is the fascism in that logic? I think you're really close to understanding an important point here.
Remember the good faith.
Okay, I'm getting curious now because you are using Nazi talking points. You said you believe Hitler ordered the Holocaust because of the documents proving it... Can you show me your standard for evidence by producing these documents, so I can know how to better suit your requirements?
love's asking for basic evidence on the existence and implementation of such rules. Their existence does not mean anything without the context.
Still waiting you for you to post the paperwork in a capacity that someone with your ideology would not immediately dismiss
And I'm still waiting for you to comment on the majesty of the pig popping on its own balls. With out acknowledging its grace how can I know you're acting in good faith?
Why would you expect them to answer your questions? I was talking to you, not them.
How do you feel about the 10 principles? Are they something that a normal, democratic society would adopt?
this moron just used the fucking NED as a source ban this dumbass
China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate
Which news lead you to this? 20 years ago?
Define capitalism, and then describe the economic system in Vietnam. I am curious what reality you exist in.
China, Laos, and Vietnam.... Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_suicide_rate,WHO(2019).svg
https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/suicide-deterrent-net/
North Korea: Undemocratically ruled
North Korea is ruled by the Supreme People's Assembly (최고인민회의) which is directly elected.
Cuba..... Why couldn't they've use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery?
No reason not to. Lots of Soviet farm machinery there.
I can give a longer response when I'm not on mobile, but so I know where to start: what have you read? What sources have you read about China's economy, for instance?
Can you provide a source for this so-called Supreme People's Assembly being democratically elected?
Who is allowed to be elected? Can the ruling party remove people from the ballot, ensuring their own elites remain in power forever?
And while you're taking questions, is there seriously a North Korean "Socialist Patriotic Youth League"?
have you ever actually studied the DPRK government, or did you watch a youtube and rely on pop culture politics?
They cannot remove people from the ballot
youth leagues are awesome
no I don't think I'll try anymore
I ended my effortposting when I found out you cited the CIA, just find another source just fucking google it, how are you this incapable
not anymore, you dug in your heels on this matter a while ago when you could have just not called people nazis for debunking your source
provide your sources for your original counterargument
also
denounce your CIA citation, then we'll talk
How do you feel about this North Korean doctrine?
- We must give our all in the struggle to unify the entire society with the revolutionary ideology of the Great Leader Kim Il Sung.
- We must honor the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung with all our loyalty.
- We must make absolute the authority of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
- We must make the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung's revolutionary ideology our faith and make his instructions our creed.
- We must adhere strictly to the principle of unconditional obedience in carrying out the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung's instructions.
- We must strengthen the entire party's ideology and willpower and revolutionary unity, centering on the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
- We must learn from the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung and adopt the communist look, revolutionary work methods and people-oriented work style.
- We must value the political life we were given by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung, and loyally repay his great political trust and thoughtfulness with heightened political awareness and skill.
- We must establish strong organizational regulations so that the entire party, nation and military move as one under the one and only leadership of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
- We must pass down the great achievement of the revolution by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung from generation to generation, inheriting and completing it to the end.
Can you provide a source for this? No use in responding if we don't even know if it's real
do not use those links, one has no citations and the other is from an organization funded by the National Endowment for Democracy
The content of North Korean doctrine seems particularly discomforting to people here, lol. Not sure why this is the country people feel the need to stand up for
https://web.archive.org/web/20141022133221/http://www2.law.columbia.edu/course_00S_L9436_001/North%20Korea%20materials/10%20principles%20of%20juche.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20170906180510/http://www.internationallawbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Ten-Great-Principles-of-the-Establishment-of-the-Unitary-ideology.pdf
DID YOU JUST POST THE CIA SOURCES A SECOND FUCKING TIME
lol that second link is the US state department, you're a rube.
they literally linked an org funded by the National Endowment for Democracy
"A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA" - then NED president Allen Weinstein
NED's President Carl Gershman said that the NED was created because "It would be terrible for democratic groups around the world to be seen as subsidized by the CIA."It's literally a group that does CIA stuff, without using the CIA name.
You claim that the NED is CIA, but have you considered that the link above is not literally cia.gov?
You just doubled down on using Holocaust denial logic. I wonder why.
But let me be more specific. You believe "The government did something bad once, therefore anything I can tie to the government was also done by the government." Nazis also hate the fact the US entered World War II.
It's more similar to not believing Goebbels radio broadcasts about the USSR. We don't distrust NED, the CIA, or the State Department just because they did something bad once, but because it is both a consistent pattern of spreading misinformation and because it is their stated purpose to rile up dissident groups in US opposed countries.
Okay, then link to the 10 principles yourself.
Nazis use the same logic as you to say Hitler never ordered the Holocaust. Why are you using Nazi logic?
Lol I'm not the one that gives a ahit about it, or brought it up. Go back to
Are you a leftist? And if you are, why do you feel the need to defend dictatorships?
Are you a poster? And if you are, why do you feel the need to hide your hog?
So you concede to the fact you are using the same logic as Nazis in the same way is Nazis, and your only response is "I don't care"?
So you concede to the fact you are using the same logic as Nazis in the same way is Nazis, and your only response is "I don't care"?
So you concede to the fact that you are a
-brained turbolib with no hog to post and your only response is "You're a Nazi"?Bruh you've been engaging in bad faith this whole time why do I owe you civility?
Also: Where's your hog?
And you arrived at this conclusion how, exactly?
Actually never mind that question. Answer my request for hog first.
the coward deleted their comments instead of posting hog
Youre just going full
rndenounce your CIA sources
I thought our ideological ancestors actions in '45 is a pretty solid denouncement of nazis
Denounce the CIA, who uses nazis
you've been calling people nazis for disagreeing with you.
You are so full of contradictions that any more and your cells will turn into a fission bomb.
So, I want to engage in as good of faith possible, here.
The content of North Korean doctrine seems particularly discomforting to people here, lol. Not sure why this is the country people feel the need to stand up for.
It's not about whether it's discomforting, it's about whether or not what you're saying is even true. I have zero reason to believe what you posted has any basis in fact. You initially copy/pasted it with no citation.
Now, the links you're giving are decidedly not Korean. The DPRK puts out works of theory and the like, fairly readily. All I'm asking for is a primary source for this.
But let's assume it's 100% true, for a minute.
Even if it is, and Korean socialism does look the way that these 10 points describe, why might that be? What would drive such an insular, personality-cult driven, set of doctrine?
Could it, perchance, be the fact that the United States set about occupying half of the Korean Peninsula? Reinstalling many of the Japanese colonial administrators the Korean people had just spent decades trying to kick out?
Might it have something to do with the fact that the US bombed the entire peninsula so heavily, that US pilots complained that they were no more targets, and that Koreans literally began living in caves and a result?
If you actually care about Koreans, and are unsettled by the centralization of power in the DPRK, then you ought to recognize that it's US imperial policy that has irrevocably shaped the destiny of the Korean peninsula.
If there's any reason to "Stand up" for the DPRK, it's for the exact reasons you've laid out. If a society is too heal, and overcome the sort of backward despotism you've presented, then the answer is surely to not isolate it more. To not continue to fuel the siege mentality that drives the state ideology. But rather, to work for peace and unification, so that the whole of Korea might, once again, be able to shape its own destiny.
So I read through his links. There isn't a citation to any of these interviews (a necessity for actual academic journalism) to make sure things aren't being taken out of context. The first document even says that "North Korean experts disagree with these things because they view North Korea through the lens of their propaganda." And even then there are only three uncited interviews, one which is obviously an absolutely outrageous lie that breaking the frame of a photo of Kim Jon Il while polishing it is grounds for the execution of an entire family.
For context, the atrocities of the Pinochet regime are backed up by literally hundreds of recorded, cited interviews, some even by guards who participated in the violence admitting their culpability years later (though usually with the excuse that they weren't the ones committing the mass rape, etc.).
This is nothing. This is unsubstantial.
"North Korea has shitty policies because it has been isolated from the rest of the world," is a statement that I agree wholeheartedly with, and yes it should be opened to things like international trade. The same holds true for Cuba, etc.
I am surprised you are allowed to believe North Korea is a shitty country with shitty policies
no one controls my beliefs, and who cited the CIA for theirs again?
Are you going to disagree with the content, or are you going to continue using your Nazi logic of attacking the (alleged) source and it's purported jewishness, rather than addressing its content
"Citations needed."
"Ummm akshually that's something a NAZI would do."
"Children in North Korea eat rats and then the rats eat the children. You must engage with whatever I claim or you're a red facist.
the smugness of these dronies is always their only personality, its very boring
"Yes I identify as an anarchist, yes I uncritically believe everything the CIA and U.S. state dept tell me, we exist. Henry Kissinger is a great man."
the contents are CIA prop, we aint reading a bit of that. You could just denounce that citation and bring in new ones. There are countless anti DPRK orgs
of course most are funded by the SKorean government or the CIA but you could make an effort.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-08-23/h_e2776aabeda048da22aebc586654236f
HRW is calling for an investigation into the Israeli bombing of a Gazan ambulance as a war crime.
It's a real shame your brain has been reduced to nothing but mindless campism
Are you saying im a zionist for not believing your shit takes on North Korea? Are you being stupid on purpose or do you find it funny?
Are you telling me Im a nazi for not believing your CIA org? Don't derail the convo
denounce your CIA source and I'll give a shit
The CIA is evil.
Can you personally condemn all state affiliated media from the CCP, Vietnam, and Russia?
Can you personally condemn all state affiliated media from the CCP, Vietnam, and Russia?
CPC* but I wouldn't expect an uninformed liberal to know, and they haven't created a worldwide network of lies and nazis (unlike the CIA)
Vietnam yeah, they don't have a distrustful track record and I am proudly biased towards socialism (unlike your bias towards capitalist dogs)
Russia ain't communist, do you live in the 80s? That would explain how you fell for the NED.
So you do condemn all CCP state propaganda, right?
Do you condemn the propaganda of the Nazi Party from 1939 to 1945?
what are these little hoops you want me to jump through? You know the answers! What do you even have left at this point.
So you do condemn all CCP state propaganda, right?
The CPC has arranged for the publication of many communist works, especially but not exclusively Mao's. I endorse their doing so. Am I a Nazi?
Okay, so you don't trust Human Rights Watch to diagnose the situation in Gaza either.
I guess that's all we can talk about, because you can't even bring yourself to read anything that you think is too globalist.
so you've moved from "you're a nazi" to "you're a zionist"
you have to be a bit, but its painful to realize that you're just another real, dumb liberal
The fact you just said that proves to me you are incapable of self-reflection
You're doing all the self-reflecting for me. Do you want to talk about actual ideas, or do you want to keep screaming insults and using ad hominems
You have the reflective ability of Dark matter
I love how you think you've made me mad with your inability to hold a basic informed opinion
"Disagreeing with me and actually questioning the viability of your sources makes you a nazi, I am very smart."
Who let this child into the adult section? I gotta talk to their parents.
Why don't you read the documents and tell me whether they are right or wrong? You seem obsessed with calling out the source as being globalist
If you don't believe in something because it's been created an arm of the US government for propaganda purposes, that's just like what the Nazis do.
Seriously what is this shit, of course something can be not credible because of the source, would you believe something you read on InfoNews
Yeah, sure. Same goes for all Chinese state media, all North Korean state media, all Russian state media, all Vietnamese state media, etc. All of those things could be 100% dishonest, and anything that agrees with those countries might be paid by them.
Which is apparently the level of conspiracy theory you, and other reactionaries, are attempting to grasp at.
So let's go back to the contents, and if the source offends you, we can talk about your offense after that.
Do you even know what the word ”reactionary” means?
You're the only one here who's posting state propaganda and expecting people to treat it as genuine, so apparently you think US state media is somehow exceptional. And not even just state media, CIA-funded media.
But unless you have the bigotry of low expectations, you should be expecting more out of the country
What exactly do you want out of a society that was burnt to the ground and survived an attempted genocide? The U.S. dropped more ordinance on NK than they used in the entirety of WW2 and destruction of Japanese cities was a fraction of what the Korean people suffered. The U.S. then helped prop up an authoritarian police state in the South for decades, I'd likely be skeptical of what western democracy entailed after watching entire towns burned to a crisp with napalm. Do you also expect the Gazan population to be a liberal democracy?
Do you use this logic to excuse the third Reich after Germany got decimated
A country involuntarily split and then decimated by a foreign power because they were likely to adopt a communist government is definitely the same as the Nazis, wow you're very smart.
- ShowCreepy that you went to PM. Why wouldn't I support the only people who are currently resisting an oppressive U.S. client state that's been murdering their friends and family for generations? It's easy to sympathize with North Korea when the U.S. did the same thing Israel is doing to the Palestinians now.
Do you also deride the Gazan population for not being the most progressive liberal democracy in the world? Why or why not? I'm sure after seeing their families and homes turned to ash they need to condemn Hamas right?
oh thats where they went? They're a 'do you denounce Hamas?' lib?
Honestly how does this just keep going
My favorite part is they asked if I supported Hamas and then assured themselves the answer would be no.
they're PMing me too and combing through my profile to find dirt on me lol, definitely not mad no siree
From the river to the sea
oh noes apparently my support for Hamas makes me
Checks notes
Show
A zionist?
I just deleted them, you should too, keeping them in the open is important to silence the 2nd coming of LiberalSocialist
I'm just wondering what Vaush Patreon tier they're at.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170906180510/http://www.internationallawbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Ten-Great-Principles-of-the-Establishment-of-the-Unitary-ideology.pdf
https://www.ned.org/2018-democracy-award/2018-democracy-award-honoree-citizens-alliance-for-north-korean-human-rights-nkhr/
you realize that second link is from an article funded by the fucking NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
you literally referenced the CIA front for false flag operations and fake organizations
Im fucking giddy are you this stupid on accident or born with a badge?
THE FUCKING NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
eheheheheheheheeeeeeeeeee oh my god this is so fuckin easy
You remind me of the Nazi who skims articles looking for a Jewish sounding name so they can dismiss it outright. Do you have any contention with the content of the article, or is ad hominem really the best thing you can come up with?
Rightful criticism of a known CIA front org is the same thing as Nazi persecution of Jewish people is one hell of a take
Seriously, get a fuckin grip
Both you and the Nazi will point to any name they can associate with the source of a document, and use it to claim it should not be taken seriously. The only difference is that they call it removed globalism, and you call it bourgeois westerners.
Are you denying the existence of the 10 principles? If you are not, are you complaining about the translation?
The only difference is that they call it removed globalism, and you call it bourgeois westerners.
Yeah that’s kinda the fundamental crux of the inherent difference between those groups you dumb fuck lmao, do you even read what you're typing
"Checking sources is Nazism actually" lmao you clueless child, get a grip and stay in school
Give a real source on where its from, without using a CIA org
You are being as reasonable as a Nazi asking me to provide evidence of the Holocaust without citing a Jewish group
We need to address the prejudice against people who work for the CIA sweety insert lib emote (I'm on my phone so can't rn)
Are you denying the existence of the 10 principles?
Yes, I am.
If you are not, are you complaining about the translation?
Also yes.
So I tried to find a different translation. I spent about 10 minutes on google looking for a different translation or at the very least more context about these alleged "10 principles". It seems like there is only one translation in existence, which I find to be very odd. The text as you've presented it is not long nor particularly difficult, so it shouldn't be difficult to translate. I would assume, then, that more than one person would have produced a translation and posted it to the internet, at least if the original korean text were widely available. And if these "10 principles" were official dprk policy, surely the korean text would be easily found.
So why can I only find one translation? Maybe you can help me out here. Can you find another translation for me please? I'll also accept the original text in korean if that's easier.
Hey @anarchost@lemm.ee, let's keep the conversation public, buddy. I've copied your dm to me below:
That's a great stance to take! After all, the 10 principles are so ridiculous that if they were true, you'd have to condemn them outright, correct?
Just give me the original text in korean or a different translation of them. Please?
Two more dm's from this creep:
Do you feel the need to have an audience to keep talking? I'm not a big fan of debate bros, personally. I would rather talk about ideas, and you are part of a server known for harassment and brigading, so I think DMs are more appropriate!
As I understand it, your stance is now that unless you can find it written down by the source, it never happened... If that is the case, do you also believe Hitler never ordered the Holocaust?
I'm so honored to have been among the group of people who got asked that shitty gotcha about Hitler.
Anyway, don't bother talking to this idiot! They're not worth the effort.
oh my god is the whole thing not even real?
and keep posting his dms, he's been doing it instead of engaging with the post.
and welcome to the "apparently a nazi for questioning the CIA" club
If your source is funded by the CIA i don't care
and you're a braindead bitch if you think you can just compare everyone to nazis without sounding like a toddler
I know you don't care. You are not a leftist, after all, which is very obvious when comparing the way you dismiss sources with identical reasoning as Nazis, and refuse to participate in the conversation.
Your belief in Horseshoe theory is only something a stupid ass liberal could. You aren't anything but a brainless libshit. Get yourself a single original thought and not one funded by the CIA, then I'll deign to give two shits about anything you say.
Horseshoe theory would imply you are a leftist.
You aren't.
I would love it if you adopted left-wing beliefs, rather than campism, and I would love it if you stopped denying the anti-LGBT agendas of the countries you have been taught to support. I hope you break out of the cult, though!
"youre a right winger because i said so" Okay buddy, you're such a good kid, now go play with your friends.
I would love it if you adopted left-wing beliefs, rather than campism, and I would love it if you stopped denying the anti-LGBT agendas of the countries you have been taught to support. I hope you break out of the cult, though!
Oh baby you've been only proporting State department bull and the literal CIA, you seem to be fully incapable of research!
I hope you break out of your programming, liberal! I'm right here for when you apologize for your US party line opinions.
Nazis and pro Israel reactionaries say the exact same thing using the exact same logic as you. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
What actual left-wing ideals do you support, or is it just all labels with you?
Nazis and pro Israel reactionaries say the exact same thing using the exact same logic as you.
Nazis and pro Israel reactionaries don't criticize the CIA and its front orgs, you're literally a dumb fuck who doesn't know how to differentiate between disparate ideologies
Where the fuck do you get off accusing others of being Nazis while you defend one of the primary funders of international neo-nazism, post hog you worm
Are you kidding? Nazis love criticizing the CIA and everything they consider too globalist.
CIA members have been and are proponents of Nazism you dumb fuck, you think the incoherent babble of some random skinhead somewhere invalidates the documented history of CIA collusion and funding of neo-Nazis orgs from Ukraine, Germany, Belgium, to the United States?
I mean of course you do because you're a pathetic troll who lacks the proper historical knowledge to successfully troll an instance like this, so you throw shit at the wall hoping beyond hope for something to stick, word of advice you should've pretended to be a trot
Your definition of arguing is citing the CIA and calling all your critics nazis
Nazis and pro Israel reactionaries say the exact same thing using the exact same logic as you. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
the context what matters, not the argument. I'd like to point out that casting all your enemies as 'nazis' doesn't really paint you in a good light either. I understand you're going for shock value, but I don't think you know I just don't care due to how stupid it is.
What actual left-wing ideals do you support, or is it just all labels with you?
I'd like to list them, but then you'd go on some tirade to derail the convo, so im not going to give them to you.
Oh, you care about not derailing the conversation? Great, then read the document that triggers you, tell me whether it is right or wrong. We can go from there.
Hold back all your complaints about how the documents are made by too many Jews, or too many globalists, or whatever your buzzword is this week, and we can get to those after we're done with that. Deal?
Oh, you care about not derailing the conversation? Great, then read the document that triggers you, tell me whether it is right or wrong. We can go from there.
No, the sources are not viable whatsoever, not even primary sources, but CIA front orgs, and one that has no sources cited.
Give me a Korean source, preferably not government, right wing, or the CIA
Hold back all your complaints about how the documents are made by too many Jews, or too many globalists, or whatever your buzzword is this week, and we can get to those after we're done with that. Deal?
babe again 👏 come👏 up 👏 with👏 some👏thing 👏 new👏
"If you don't like my sources you are basically a genocidal, jew-hating nazi" is not good faith either. Get your head out of your ass
Renounce your CIA citation and I'll deign to care about your shitty opinions.
The source is Korean.
If you had paused long enough to stop vomiting Nazi level ideology, you might have noticed that
Right-wing Korean tabloid press concerning North Korea has been debunked by independent South Korean media orgs for decades, to the point it's become a meme in South Korea
You don't know what NED is or the history of American funded right-wing media in South Korea, you're like a Qanon supporter accusing people of being pedo supporters because they don't believe nonsense made up by right-wing conspiracy rags, which YOU are also using as sources lmao
Again, get a grip and learn some media literacy shitlib
That sounds fascinating. Please post multiple links to the South Korean Independent organizations that have debunked them.
As a side note, I take it you personally condemn the Grayzone, all CCP funded media, all Vietnamese state funded media, all Russian state funded media, all Syrian state funded media, etc?
You ever heard of this concept called 'critical analysis' or do you just go around in life believing everything you read and excommunicating everything that upsets like some sophist pope
Also you wormlike hypocrite, when are you gonna condemn the sources you just used? You've been informed of their origin and yet not a word of condemnation for one of the most horrifically fascistic organizations in human history
Uses fash sources, then accuses other people of being fash, you learn that trick on pol you dumb fuck?
Show me your critical analysis in action. Critically analyze the content
Sorrrry, I don't teach people who peddle fash sources :)
But I can show you this proof
spoiler
I condemn the CIA. Do you condemn all Russian, CCP, and Vietnamese state media equally?
I condemn the CIA
No you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be using their sources you dumb fuck
How many governments has Russian, CCP, and Vietnamese state media helped overthrown? Again 'critical analysis' shitlib, it's a wondrous concept
1, that was a deflection
2, I have a problem with CIA propaganda, since they are an organization hell bent on lying about us and killing every single red in existence to further the interests of American Capital
babe
korean dont mean shit
D-
Do you not know that SKorea is a US puppet? Do you actually believe it is a sovereign nation with no US control?
The USA has direct control of the SKorean military during wartime, how can you be sovereign when you can't even control your own army.
And you don't seem to know basic cold war history if you don't know what the NED is.
Renounce your CIA citation and I'll deign to care about your shitty opinions.
You know, if you used your own logic, you wouldn't believe Hitler ordered the Holocaust.
So... With that in mind, where do you stand on that?
No, there are literal documents from the reich that he did so, as well as soviet and american ones. It also lines up perfectly with the ideology of hitler and what he said he was going to do.
How long has it been since you've talked to another human being?
That doesn't even make sense with context, what the fuck are you talking about.
Your logic dictates that American documents must be discarded because they are Western chauvinist. Because the Soviet Union was collaborating with America, they must also be discarded. So we are left with the Nazi documents of which there are none.
So are you telling me that you believe Hitler never ordered the Holocaust, or are you about to revise the way you believe things?
what the
whaaaa
are you saying
Are you saying that the Soviets are PUPPETS OF THE USA?!
Dronie you've made a leap large enough to cross the space between the earth and moon.
God I can't take you seriously.
Renounce the CIA citation and then I'll care
I'm sorry, did you ever substantiate your moon logic that North Korea is a permanent puppet of the United States?
How in the fucking hell is the DPRK a US puppet?
So we are left with the Nazi documents of which there are none.
What the fuck are you saying? There are a ton of Nazi documents that were used to prove a great deal about the Holocaust. There were cases of extensive destruction of documents, but they didn't do that everywhere.
You keep saying this and if you knew anything about Holocaust historiography and were speaking in good faith, it would be a really weird thing to say.
https://www.holocaustcentre.org.nz/uploads/1/1/5/2/115245341/interpretations-of-the-holocaust.pdf
Hitler was obviously an enthusiastic facilitator of the Holocaust, but to say that he "ordered" is a really fraught claim. It's not like gas chambers or even death camps were his idea, or only put to use killing Jewish people after he approved of them. To my knowledge, he did order the removal of Jewish people from all the society controlled by Nazis and did seek for them to be eradicated, but when you say "ordered the Holocaust" it makes it sound like it was much more centrally-organized than it was. The fascist higher-ups on a municipal level understood it was part of their job to "purge" the Jewish population, but how they were to go about it often was not handed down to them, so they devised their own methods (and, if they reported success, their method was sometimes applied elsewhere). Whether what Hitler did say amounts to "ordering the Holocaust" vs the Holocaust being one of several possible outcomes that would have fallen within his orders is a matter of debate (to be clear, he did order genocide of Jews in a broader sense, but the Holocaust was not only work camps, which still would have been genocide due to many factors, and should not be understood as such).
I don't know, it's just weird, you are very self-serious about history while demonstrating confident ignorance.
I think this says very little of substance besides "our Great Leader is cool, Juche is cool, we must protect the revolution". Oh, and supporting central organization. What do you think it says?
5 is the only one that looks iffy to me. I guess you could say 3 too, but honestly they are a little redundant.
Can you provide documentation proving each of those is anything but a capitalist country, preferably using evidence that would not also include Nazi Germany
China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed.
I just want to say it's really funny that libs refer to Taiwan as China when it suits them. The specific Foxconn factory that was the center of this mess was in Taiwan and universities produced an 84 page report that investigated the matter when it blew up, one of the major reasons cited for the suicides in the report was discrimination against mainlanders occurring within the "labour camp" (their words) that was being operated there where taiwanese were privileged over mainlanders used for cheaper labour that they could exploit harder thanks to taiwan's administration being dogshit on regulations. Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20100921055650/http://hk.stockstar.com/2010/05/2510087523186.shtml
Lol. Lmao.
The Zapstist "Caracoles" are societies that live under their own goberment, based on the ideas of the EZLN, the bast mayority of them are located in the state of Chiapas, in the south of México
I’ve been speaking with other more informed communists and they’ve told me
Lol this reads like social engineering to shift perception of ingroup mores. I guess I’m paranoid after seeing that Atlantic Council whitepaper calling for greater control of the fediverse.
A warning: They are trying to DM instead of actually respond in comment, ignore them.
There's Marinaleda, which has been true to its word from the very start.
OP you are a loser, those DMs you were sending were cringe as fuck and I think you suck as a person :)
The people you've been talking to aren't "more informed" they're a bunch of clowns lol.
None of Europe is socialist. It is all capitalist.
The communism you're referring to here seems to be the notion of a stateless, classless society. This is, by definition, incompatible with the existence of a nation-state, so the idea of such a country is oxymoronic and not what any communist would say reflects their politics - not now and not historically. It's a liberal confusion, as liberals know basically nothing about politics and substitute mass media memes and vibes in its stead.
Another person here claims Vietnam is socialist, despite being a social democracy. Why is it that one country gets a pass, but the other one does not? Is it really about the labels that nations affix to themselves?
Feel free to revisit my original comment in this thread where I go over what is meant by "socialist country". Funnily enough, it's the first comment of mine you replied to, though you didn't address anything I said in it and instead just started asking stupid questions. At least you're consistent!
Another person here claims Vietnam is socialist, despite being a social democracy. Why is it that one country gets a pass, but the other one does not?
who'd willingly engage in good faith with a colonizer JAQoff once the mask is off tho
You have no principles:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Yes i know they funded Hamas, but only to get them ahead of the secular resistances. Hamas was and is still in opposition to Israel.
Feel free to compare the engagement in my responses to you vs. your responses to me and ask yourself, "am I a good, honest leftist or a liberal coward?"
Bluster can definitely be engagement, you need to learn your words better, child. Though I spent time to explain things to you at length.
It's a shame you're not honest enough to handle contradiction. Your insecurity is on full display.
How could you bear this CIAnarchist for so long, he's insufferable
No no no, look at me
Look at me
I am the captain now
denounce your CIA sources
you seem to be a pathetic bitch that can't vet the only two sources they cite. Next time you bother us try to come up with something real instead of regurgitating US propaganda. Like how are you this fucking dumb to cite the CIA?
Do you disagree with the sources, or do you just want to engage in bad faith and swear
oh no woe is me people are swearing on the internet
the last time I gave you the dignity of caring you cited the literal fucking CIA
Most of Europe is pretty heavily socialist.
what timeline do you live in?
you're confusing socialism for social democracy. social democracy comes at the expense of large scale exploitation of the third world through neo-colonial imperialism, so it is still capitalism
Marx uses the words Socialism and Communism pretty much interchangeably (Engels a little less so). But Europe hasn't been either since about 1990
