Imagine having faith in liberal democracy lmao. You really think that we just have to win the hearts and minds of a reactionary nation and then some day, maybe in 2042 we will get an Imperialist succdem in office who will not be able to pass anything? You really think this country has the time to do the outreach it would take to change democrats to """"socialists""""? do you think there will still be elections by then?
You really think that we just have to win the hearts and minds of a reactionary nation
Uh yeah, if we build a movement too big to ignore we can win. That's the whole premise here. Do you have a better plan? I'm all ears.
You really think this country has the time to do the outreach it would take to change democrats to “”"“socialists”"""
Look at how fast the material conditions of ordinary Americans are changing. All that's needed are people who can explain why that's happening and provide a better alternative. And again, if you have a better plan that will work more quickly, I'm all ears. I just don't see one.
I wrote a long reply then auto-update erased it so I'm just going to say that the US is headed towards fascism and nobody is prepared for it. The crisis of capitalism will not radicalize everyone by itself, most people in the US are petit bourgeois and will want to return to that class position. We need to be ready to fight that. We need to have more guns on our side because political power grows out of their barrels. We need to be organized and disciplined.
We need to be ready to fight that. We need to have more guns on our side because political power grows out of their barrels. We need to be organized and disciplined.
To add to that: we need a lot more people on our side than we had in the 2020 primary.
If we can't win a primary, talking about a revolutionary left is laughable. You need people to put their lives on the line in a revolution -- we didn't even get enough people to go stand in line and fucking vote.
I'm as pessimistic about electoralism as you are, I'm just more pessimistic about everything else because any other path to a better future requires a lot more work and a lot more committed support than winning an election.
we didn’t even get enough people to go stand in line and fucking vote.
Being fair: None of the states voted before Bernie dropped, besides like 5. The primary system being dragged out as long as it was is an issue. You throw in closed-primaries in certain states and that double's the problem. A lot of independents leaned Bernie over the Democratic registered party members and couldn't vote him by the time he dropped because of those rules.
None of the states voted before Bernie dropped, besides like 5.
This isn't really accurate. Only a handful of states voted before the other candidates dropped out and endorsed Biden, but Super Tuesday happened with Bernie still in the race and he lost conclusively. We didn't even get probably a third of the Democratic primary electorate to sign on for an extremely moderate left alternative to maybe the worst centrist candidate. That's not anywhere near the type of popular support needed for a revolution.
If there are somehow a bunch of people that are willing to pick up a gun and get shot at for socialism, but who aren't willing to vote for something as obvious as universal healthcare, sure, let's put our eggs in a non-electoral basket. I just don't see anyway that's happening, though, at least not right now. We have to get a lot more people on our side.
My point is more: Super Tuesday took forever to get to and even then we shouldn't have a "Super Tuesday" and then a trickle of about 30-35 states primaries after that. The primary system in general is dumb because of how long the process takes.
I would've voted/nominated Sanders in the primary full-stop. But 1) By the time the state I'm in would've gotten to it: He dropped out/Super Tuesday's "rigging" happened and his chances were sank. and 2) the state I'm in would require me to change my party nomination to nominate him (or Trump or any other Republican) in their primaries.
I'm sure there's a lot of younger voters that aren't registered in either party that would be excluded on #2 and even if they weren't couldn't get a chance to have their voice heard due to #1/long primary voting process.
OK, it's dumb. But if the left can't figure out a game designed by politics dorks because it's complicated or it takes too long, how the hell is the left supposed to win a revolution? Or how the hell is the left supposed to organize protracted general strikes? Or how the hell is the left supposed to do any significant non-electoral strategy, because at bottom they're all more complicated than a primary and require something closer to actual sacrifice.
That's my main issue with people who talk about abandoning electoralism completely: they stuff they're suggesting as alternatives won't work until we have widespread popular support, and I don't see a way of gaining widespread popular support that doesn't involve (at least in part) doing politics the way most Americans think politics are done (i.e., through elections). The fastest way to build a leftist movement is to have popular leftist candidates running in races people care about. If you win you win; if you lose you still get leftist ideas out there to people we need to persuade.
Imagine having faith in liberal democracy lmao. You really think that we just have to win the hearts and minds of a reactionary nation and then some day, maybe in 2042 we will get an Imperialist succdem in office who will not be able to pass anything? You really think this country has the time to do the outreach it would take to change democrats to """"socialists""""? do you think there will still be elections by then?
Uh yeah, if we build a movement too big to ignore we can win. That's the whole premise here. Do you have a better plan? I'm all ears.
Look at how fast the material conditions of ordinary Americans are changing. All that's needed are people who can explain why that's happening and provide a better alternative. And again, if you have a better plan that will work more quickly, I'm all ears. I just don't see one.
I wrote a long reply then auto-update erased it so I'm just going to say that the US is headed towards fascism and nobody is prepared for it. The crisis of capitalism will not radicalize everyone by itself, most people in the US are petit bourgeois and will want to return to that class position. We need to be ready to fight that. We need to have more guns on our side because political power grows out of their barrels. We need to be organized and disciplined.
This blows, yeah.
To add to that: we need a lot more people on our side than we had in the 2020 primary.
I swear to God say primary one more time
If we can't win a primary, talking about a revolutionary left is laughable. You need people to put their lives on the line in a revolution -- we didn't even get enough people to go stand in line and fucking vote.
I'm as pessimistic about electoralism as you are, I'm just more pessimistic about everything else because any other path to a better future requires a lot more work and a lot more committed support than winning an election.
Being fair: None of the states voted before Bernie dropped, besides like 5. The primary system being dragged out as long as it was is an issue. You throw in closed-primaries in certain states and that double's the problem. A lot of independents leaned Bernie over the Democratic registered party members and couldn't vote him by the time he dropped because of those rules.
This isn't really accurate. Only a handful of states voted before the other candidates dropped out and endorsed Biden, but Super Tuesday happened with Bernie still in the race and he lost conclusively. We didn't even get probably a third of the Democratic primary electorate to sign on for an extremely moderate left alternative to maybe the worst centrist candidate. That's not anywhere near the type of popular support needed for a revolution.
If there are somehow a bunch of people that are willing to pick up a gun and get shot at for socialism, but who aren't willing to vote for something as obvious as universal healthcare, sure, let's put our eggs in a non-electoral basket. I just don't see anyway that's happening, though, at least not right now. We have to get a lot more people on our side.
My point is more: Super Tuesday took forever to get to and even then we shouldn't have a "Super Tuesday" and then a trickle of about 30-35 states primaries after that. The primary system in general is dumb because of how long the process takes.
I would've voted/nominated Sanders in the primary full-stop. But 1) By the time the state I'm in would've gotten to it: He dropped out/Super Tuesday's "rigging" happened and his chances were sank. and 2) the state I'm in would require me to change my party nomination to nominate him (or Trump or any other Republican) in their primaries.
I'm sure there's a lot of younger voters that aren't registered in either party that would be excluded on #2 and even if they weren't couldn't get a chance to have their voice heard due to #1/long primary voting process.
OK, it's dumb. But if the left can't figure out a game designed by politics dorks because it's complicated or it takes too long, how the hell is the left supposed to win a revolution? Or how the hell is the left supposed to organize protracted general strikes? Or how the hell is the left supposed to do any significant non-electoral strategy, because at bottom they're all more complicated than a primary and require something closer to actual sacrifice.
That's my main issue with people who talk about abandoning electoralism completely: they stuff they're suggesting as alternatives won't work until we have widespread popular support, and I don't see a way of gaining widespread popular support that doesn't involve (at least in part) doing politics the way most Americans think politics are done (i.e., through elections). The fastest way to build a leftist movement is to have popular leftist candidates running in races people care about. If you win you win; if you lose you still get leftist ideas out there to people we need to persuade.