A while back there was a thread about eliminating intelligence-based insults from our vocab. Words like "Dumb", "stupid", etc.
https://hexbear.net/post/15636
My gut instinct to this was to get angry, and berate the OP u/QuillQuote for his ideas. I insulted him, I called him dumb, and when he pm'd me, I dismissed all his arguments and called him dumb again. Then he told me to go fuck myself and I told him I would masturbate later
Since then I actually thought a little about the issue and I began to see their point. An intelligence-based insult is fundamentally wrong, because it concerns something that cannot be controlled.
Insults about race, gender, and sexuality are all de facto verboten here because they target traits that can't be controlled--and I agree.
Intelligence can't be controlled either. And intelligence is actually one of the most disadvantaging traits to be handicapped by. Ditto for appearance.
Likewise, AGE cannot be controlled either, you only age in one direction and that's it. If I was 55, there's nothing I can do to be more like a 30 year old. MOREOVER, some people actually have inborn disabilities that make them age faster, with some 10 year old children having the biological age of a 40 year old adult.
So I'm making the proposition that we should attempt to eliminate these words from our arsenal of insults. Words like "dumb", "stupid", "boomer", "ugly", "short", are all words that target people on traits that they cannot control, and worse, they insult other bystanders in the process who may have committed no offense.
In fact, I called someone a boomer jokingly just a few minutes ago. That was the trigger that made me think about this. I apologize if my words hurt anyone.
I didn't down vote this, I hardly vote on anything unless it's egregiously bad or very good. But I'm a little hesitant to jump completely onboard.
Look, I say this with love as someone with MDD and GAD, there are mentally ill people here. People who don't know how to socialize or really engage with the world. I am one of those people. But at the same time we can't get into this mindset where we make being a good leftist = being nice to me. You have to be able to separate politics from your personal hangups and issues. I don't mean thinking that politics has no bearing on your life. Just not falling into the trap of "you said the word dumb to describe some lib on twitter so you're actually insulting me and therefore you're a bad person and not a good leftist." You might try to take a patronizing route and say that you're not calling others bad people, you're just saying they're not being as good as they can be. But that's really the same thing. People don't have to be nice to you because you're a fellow leftist. People don't have to be nice to you online. Especially when the definition of nice is highly qualified around this kind of ritual. This isn't politics.
That being said I agree people should try to be nicer online. People should try to be more constructive and approach things in good faith. But I don't think using insults is what's stopping that.
Let's take the Iraq War for example. You had wealthy people with connections who purposefully and willingly refused to educate themselves on the country. They were in charge of changing the country and running things. Yet they never read about its history or its people or anything else. They refused to know things simply because of hubris and laziness. If that's not dumb I don't know what is. I know that knowledge is not the same as intelligence. I'm just saying that I'm not going to stop calling this kind of shit dumb. I'm not going to call you dumb. But they are dumb. They are stupid. Trump is ugly. Biden is a boomer.
I'm actually completely on-board but simply see it as a strategic error in any space that is not trying to be a socialist-only space.
Every single space that takes this on as a matter of policy becomes socialist-only and eliminates their ability to have any lib to leftist pipeline.
A great reason why it should never be a rule, because fuck that. We shouldn't need rules to tell us how to support our comrades, but what we do need is the ability to talk about stuff like this without it immediately setting people against each other
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
Honestly, it chases off a lot of socialists too. "Stupid" is just normal language, and it's grating to have to hobble your speech over a tiny amount of people's weird sensitivities. The thing I liked about CTH was that it was more freewheeling and less restrictive than all the other leftist subs that went with these language bans.
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
I'm sorry, but quite frankly, Socialism is not a contest to turn people into the most morally perfect versions of themselves. It is not about being perfectly sensitive to every little group that centers itself around an identity so that they can feel heard and validated. Socialism is about POWER. It is about the WORKING CLASS coming together and seizing power together from the Bourgeoisie. The struggles of individual groups, like disabled people, are a part of that, but they're most importantly part of an overall framework of class warfare.
I don't want to live in a world where I can't say "stupid" or "moron" as a pejorative. Stupidity is a bad thing that needs to be struggled against, both in oneself via education, and in the world via making it more justly and intelligently run. The thing that I absolutely despise about conservatives is that they're morons. I hate being ruled by morons. I hate letting conservatives shove their idiocy in our politics and wreck the rest of our lives and our society. Conservatives are stupid. The Bourgeoisie is stupid. The problems they cause are stupid. Climate change is stupid. Racism is stupid. Homophobia and transphobia are stupid. Recessions are stupid. Lower wages and economic growth that serves to feed the most pampered people in human history more useless money is really fucking stupid. We should fight against all of these things, because stupidity is a bad thing, and I want a smart society. We should all say so, and if the anti-ableism movement doesn't want socialists to say that, then that makes them wreckers who should not be listened to.
Yeah we disagree. I strongly recommend you actually talk to some people affected by this issue rather than just making your own mind up about it. Take a step into some communities for those working against it and see what their points are. These people are very much not different from any other marginalised group by society and the use of these words has absolutely no difference to the use of removed or removed in terms of damage it does to them.
This is a battle that is going to be fought over society for the next couple of decades and it is going to be won by them just as ground has been clawed from society on everyone in lgbt circles.
I won't scold you for it. I was where you are not very long ago. I don't think you're a bad person for this. I just disagree and think that, given proper exposure to the affected groups, proper empathy for their struggle, proper understand of how it harms them, I think that you will eventually step back and understand it the same way you understand the plights of other groups.
On an unrelated note. I really think you're actually completely misusing the word stupid altogether. None of those groups are stupid, they're the ignorant and misguided masses, but not stupid. The problem with calling people stupid is that it abruptly stops right there, it's a value judgement of someone's biological ability to process information. You can't fix biological deficiency and thus calling these people these things actually prevents us from doing the thing that really needs to be done -- education. They are correctly defined as the ignorant and misguided masses, people that must be corrected, brought around, educated. You can't educate-away something biologically inherent to a person like "stupid" or "dumb" which are really just substitute words for "removed". What we as revolutionaries must do is teach the masses. Their views are distorted, the information they have been fed is outright wrong in many cases. This is not always their fault. Yes they are often exceedingly difficult and frustrating to get through to but we can and must get through to them. We aren't repairing biology by doing that. We're repairing ignorance.
I really don't like talking about myself too much online, but I have a family member who is mentally disabled. In an earlier era, he would have been called the word that the automod removed in your post. I think I understand the issues surrounding these individuals a fair bit better than most, and let me say-
No, stupid and dumb are emphatically NOT substitute words for that, and I'm kind of disgusted at the assertion that they are. My mentally-disabled relative is not stupid. He's mentally disabled. Ordinary people who do not meet the criteria for mental disability can be stupid. Furthermore, the way "stupid" is used is conditional and circumstantial. I'm not stupid all the time, but I behave stupidly sometimes. For example, I was stupid when I left a jar of quarters in the laundry room the other day. I understand the argument over the history of these terms, but that doesn't apply to the way they're used in the modern day.
You're asserting a weird, totalizing definition of these words in ways that hobble our language and our ability to accurately describe the world. The way you'd have us define these words would make it harder, not easier, to reach the masses, which is why I think these anti-ableism movements might be pushed by the feds and other anti-socialist forces.
I don't think this matters. It's the same argument people that previously commonly used fa. ggot used and it's the same argument people currently fighting against the word trap being a slur are using. Back 10-15 years ago in the days of my 4chan use I myself rather ignorantly made the argument that fa. ggot was a word used with neutral intent that was not target at or even about lgbt people at all. It was a word used simply to insult, simply to tell others the equivalent of r-word or stupid. Apologies for censor dodging, I felt I needed to in order to make sure the correct word I intended as said. Just last week I encountered EXACTLY the same argument being used in /r/goodanimemes by people blasting trans people for daring to tell them to stop using a harmful slur. Back all those years ago we did all kinds of gymnastics around the intention and how it's actually used and on and on and on. We were wrong. Very very wrong and ignorant children.
Exactly the same battle is going to rage for yet another marginalised group.
And... After their battle it won't be the last. I'm quite sure that there are other marginalised groups whose struggle has yet to even become a twinkle in someone's eye. Something we do right now, casually, without even realising. Whatever battle that is will eventually follow down the line too, long after the ableist one.
A does not equal A. Just because there is already one kind of struggle against a slur does not mean that every struggle against mean words is equally justified. Disabled people should have accommodations, such as handicapped parking spaces and ramps for their use. Mentally disabled people should have special education freely given so that they may function and gain employment in society. I support these policies because I recognize them as a part of class struggle- disability can be a major hindrance in people's economic security and a Socialist should support remedies to that.
But some kind of universal language struggle that hobbles our ability to differentiate between what we should promote and celebrate and what we should correct is not justified, on any grounds. Stupidity, as something apart from mental disability, is not something that is desirable in our society or in ourselves. As I said, I've behaved stupidly at times and I try to correct that, even if I'm not always successful. We're not talking about repressing disabled people, we're talking about differentiating between things that are smart and not smart. Intelligence, as a concept, as something people are capable of being, as something that can be applied to make the world a better place, should be celebrated and promoted. Stupidity should not. That should come with a certain understanding that we can all be stupid at times, but fundamentally, a socialist society should be an intelligent one, because only the proper application of intelligence can serve to build socialism.
I'm sorry, but I have to go back to my original point- socialism is about working class power. It is not about being nice or pure or making everyone perfectly sensitive to everyone else. All other struggles should be part of that overall framework. No socialist society that has ever existed has stopped saying "stupid," because that's just plain not what socialism is about.
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
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isn’t that the greatest generation? or when do they come in
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appreciate the response
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tyvm!
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