A while back there was a thread about eliminating intelligence-based insults from our vocab. Words like "Dumb", "stupid", etc.
https://hexbear.net/post/15636
My gut instinct to this was to get angry, and berate the OP u/QuillQuote for his ideas. I insulted him, I called him dumb, and when he pm'd me, I dismissed all his arguments and called him dumb again. Then he told me to go fuck myself and I told him I would masturbate later
Since then I actually thought a little about the issue and I began to see their point. An intelligence-based insult is fundamentally wrong, because it concerns something that cannot be controlled.
Insults about race, gender, and sexuality are all de facto verboten here because they target traits that can't be controlled--and I agree.
Intelligence can't be controlled either. And intelligence is actually one of the most disadvantaging traits to be handicapped by. Ditto for appearance.
Likewise, AGE cannot be controlled either, you only age in one direction and that's it. If I was 55, there's nothing I can do to be more like a 30 year old. MOREOVER, some people actually have inborn disabilities that make them age faster, with some 10 year old children having the biological age of a 40 year old adult.
So I'm making the proposition that we should attempt to eliminate these words from our arsenal of insults. Words like "dumb", "stupid", "boomer", "ugly", "short", are all words that target people on traits that they cannot control, and worse, they insult other bystanders in the process who may have committed no offense.
In fact, I called someone a boomer jokingly just a few minutes ago. That was the trigger that made me think about this. I apologize if my words hurt anyone.
I disagree for the most part, and here's why. Intelligence isn't something that is set in stone. It isn't something uniform either, aka there are a lot of types of "intelligences", and if you truly put the time into it, you'll get more intelligent in a domain or another, the reverse works just as well. When we call someone a fucking moron, it's duly deserved 99% of the time. Like, there's no way around it, that person is doing stupid things or choices, and it'll impact the rest of us. They could put in the time to understand why they're wrong, yet never asked why they do or believe something once apparently. I have far more respect to someone who has learning disabilities, but who tries to dialogue and to know better, than I ever will for fascists or neolibs.
When it comes to things like "boomers" or something, well, I think it mostly refers to the state of mind of the generation who absolutely assfucked us in the past, and keeps doing it to this day. It's deserved that we call out their bullshit everyday.
However, I do agree, nearly all insults based on appearance are truly low and effortless, and should be avoided.
Some words should be avoided, but most of them are fine. I wish people could understand that we had 150k for a few reasons, which were the irreverent tone we had, the near complete freedom of expression and the constant shitposts. People felt at home, even with these words employed routinely. One of the last posts I read was one from a trans person who found in Chapo a community that fully accepted them. A community with a sizeable portion of dirtbags who never held back proverbial punches for those who deserve it.
God I hate that I can't say the r word anymore, it's almost a reflex from the past 10 years that I have to unlearn. It took some time and I still want to scream it to some people, but eh, no changes happen in one day.
Adding to this, boomer as an insult has always been a state of mind thing. That all started out as the "30 year old Boomer" shit about being nostalgic for stuff that happened before you were born and whatnot.
As I understand, it was kicked off by a single person on 4chan who spammed it as much as they could on every board until it caught on. Wonder how they feel right now?
I didn't down vote this, I hardly vote on anything unless it's egregiously bad or very good. But I'm a little hesitant to jump completely onboard.
Look, I say this with love as someone with MDD and GAD, there are mentally ill people here. People who don't know how to socialize or really engage with the world. I am one of those people. But at the same time we can't get into this mindset where we make being a good leftist = being nice to me. You have to be able to separate politics from your personal hangups and issues. I don't mean thinking that politics has no bearing on your life. Just not falling into the trap of "you said the word dumb to describe some lib on twitter so you're actually insulting me and therefore you're a bad person and not a good leftist." You might try to take a patronizing route and say that you're not calling others bad people, you're just saying they're not being as good as they can be. But that's really the same thing. People don't have to be nice to you because you're a fellow leftist. People don't have to be nice to you online. Especially when the definition of nice is highly qualified around this kind of ritual. This isn't politics.
That being said I agree people should try to be nicer online. People should try to be more constructive and approach things in good faith. But I don't think using insults is what's stopping that.
Let's take the Iraq War for example. You had wealthy people with connections who purposefully and willingly refused to educate themselves on the country. They were in charge of changing the country and running things. Yet they never read about its history or its people or anything else. They refused to know things simply because of hubris and laziness. If that's not dumb I don't know what is. I know that knowledge is not the same as intelligence. I'm just saying that I'm not going to stop calling this kind of shit dumb. I'm not going to call you dumb. But they are dumb. They are stupid. Trump is ugly. Biden is a boomer.
I'm actually completely on-board but simply see it as a strategic error in any space that is not trying to be a socialist-only space.
Every single space that takes this on as a matter of policy becomes socialist-only and eliminates their ability to have any lib to leftist pipeline.
A great reason why it should never be a rule, because fuck that. We shouldn't need rules to tell us how to support our comrades, but what we do need is the ability to talk about stuff like this without it immediately setting people against each other
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
Honestly, it chases off a lot of socialists too. "Stupid" is just normal language, and it's grating to have to hobble your speech over a tiny amount of people's weird sensitivities. The thing I liked about CTH was that it was more freewheeling and less restrictive than all the other leftist subs that went with these language bans.
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
I'm sorry, but quite frankly, Socialism is not a contest to turn people into the most morally perfect versions of themselves. It is not about being perfectly sensitive to every little group that centers itself around an identity so that they can feel heard and validated. Socialism is about POWER. It is about the WORKING CLASS coming together and seizing power together from the Bourgeoisie. The struggles of individual groups, like disabled people, are a part of that, but they're most importantly part of an overall framework of class warfare.
I don't want to live in a world where I can't say "stupid" or "moron" as a pejorative. Stupidity is a bad thing that needs to be struggled against, both in oneself via education, and in the world via making it more justly and intelligently run. The thing that I absolutely despise about conservatives is that they're morons. I hate being ruled by morons. I hate letting conservatives shove their idiocy in our politics and wreck the rest of our lives and our society. Conservatives are stupid. The Bourgeoisie is stupid. The problems they cause are stupid. Climate change is stupid. Racism is stupid. Homophobia and transphobia are stupid. Recessions are stupid. Lower wages and economic growth that serves to feed the most pampered people in human history more useless money is really fucking stupid. We should fight against all of these things, because stupidity is a bad thing, and I want a smart society. We should all say so, and if the anti-ableism movement doesn't want socialists to say that, then that makes them wreckers who should not be listened to.
Yeah we disagree. I strongly recommend you actually talk to some people affected by this issue rather than just making your own mind up about it. Take a step into some communities for those working against it and see what their points are. These people are very much not different from any other marginalised group by society and the use of these words has absolutely no difference to the use of removed or removed in terms of damage it does to them.
This is a battle that is going to be fought over society for the next couple of decades and it is going to be won by them just as ground has been clawed from society on everyone in lgbt circles.
I won't scold you for it. I was where you are not very long ago. I don't think you're a bad person for this. I just disagree and think that, given proper exposure to the affected groups, proper empathy for their struggle, proper understand of how it harms them, I think that you will eventually step back and understand it the same way you understand the plights of other groups.
On an unrelated note. I really think you're actually completely misusing the word stupid altogether. None of those groups are stupid, they're the ignorant and misguided masses, but not stupid. The problem with calling people stupid is that it abruptly stops right there, it's a value judgement of someone's biological ability to process information. You can't fix biological deficiency and thus calling these people these things actually prevents us from doing the thing that really needs to be done -- education. They are correctly defined as the ignorant and misguided masses, people that must be corrected, brought around, educated. You can't educate-away something biologically inherent to a person like "stupid" or "dumb" which are really just substitute words for "removed". What we as revolutionaries must do is teach the masses. Their views are distorted, the information they have been fed is outright wrong in many cases. This is not always their fault. Yes they are often exceedingly difficult and frustrating to get through to but we can and must get through to them. We aren't repairing biology by doing that. We're repairing ignorance.
I really don't like talking about myself too much online, but I have a family member who is mentally disabled. In an earlier era, he would have been called the word that the automod removed in your post. I think I understand the issues surrounding these individuals a fair bit better than most, and let me say-
You can’t educate-away something biologically inherent to a person like “stupid” or “dumb” which are really just substitute words for “removed”.
No, stupid and dumb are emphatically NOT substitute words for that, and I'm kind of disgusted at the assertion that they are. My mentally-disabled relative is not stupid. He's mentally disabled. Ordinary people who do not meet the criteria for mental disability can be stupid. Furthermore, the way "stupid" is used is conditional and circumstantial. I'm not stupid all the time, but I behave stupidly sometimes. For example, I was stupid when I left a jar of quarters in the laundry room the other day. I understand the argument over the history of these terms, but that doesn't apply to the way they're used in the modern day.
You're asserting a weird, totalizing definition of these words in ways that hobble our language and our ability to accurately describe the world. The way you'd have us define these words would make it harder, not easier, to reach the masses, which is why I think these anti-ableism movements might be pushed by the feds and other anti-socialist forces.
Furthermore, the way “stupid” is used is conditional and circumstantial.
I don't think this matters. It's the same argument people that previously commonly used fa. ggot used and it's the same argument people currently fighting against the word trap being a slur are using. Back 10-15 years ago in the days of my 4chan use I myself rather ignorantly made the argument that fa. ggot was a word used with neutral intent that was not target at or even about lgbt people at all. It was a word used simply to insult, simply to tell others the equivalent of r-word or stupid. Apologies for censor dodging, I felt I needed to in order to make sure the correct word I intended as said. Just last week I encountered EXACTLY the same argument being used in /r/goodanimemes by people blasting trans people for daring to tell them to stop using a harmful slur. Back all those years ago we did all kinds of gymnastics around the intention and how it's actually used and on and on and on. We were wrong. Very very wrong and ignorant children.
Exactly the same battle is going to rage for yet another marginalised group.
And... After their battle it won't be the last. I'm quite sure that there are other marginalised groups whose struggle has yet to even become a twinkle in someone's eye. Something we do right now, casually, without even realising. Whatever battle that is will eventually follow down the line too, long after the ableist one.
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
I get this and I understand where you're coming from with the "it's just normal language" angle, and you're right. It is normal language. The problem however is that it shouldn't be, and that's what the ableism movement is trying to achieve.
I am on board with that movement in that respect because I can see in it exactly the same battles trans people have fought to get where we are, and what we're still fighting (trap) in many places.
But, as I said before. Because of the current situation with the word in the wider public and even among the left I do see it as strategically difficult to go all-in on it, despite the fact I completely agree with the battle they're fighting now.
On one hand, I agree. I really do.
On the other, I really don’t want to give up boomer hate, and mocking Shapiro for being the height of a small child is too good to give up.
Similarly, both Trump and Biden are in a state of mental decline—if you tip them sideways, their grey matter starts spilling out of their ears.
Also, remember the time Biden activated his geass on live TV?
I want a middle ground between compassion towards comrades and effective bullying and mockery of chuds.
I know what you mean but I can’t get the image of a comrade who has spent their life being mocked and shit on for being short, seeing their comrades continue to shit on people for being short
Ben Shapiro will never see or be hurt by your comments, but a comrade might be.
Again not that I’m asking you to stop doing it, just explaining why I myself avoid it <3
I didn't downvote this thread (necessary disclaimer apparently because people are taking being downvoted as very serious business for some reason), but I am asking seriously if the baseline for our verbal content should be "Is it possible that anyone anywhere might be hurt by it?"
I want to be sensitive to others, but I also want a space where people can call Pete Buttigieg a horrible rat freak without worrying too much about it. And not to speak for everyone, but I'm short and I'm fine with mocking Ben Shapiro for being short. Why? Because tying your worth as a person to some imagined ideal standard is fash shit, and I'm not fash (but he is). I'm fine with calling Joe Biden old not because being old is bad, but because it deserves to be pointed out that the person who is asking to be installed as president is visibly senile person with no ideas and a million skeletons in his closet.
I responded positively to Quill's earlier thread (even if I didn't fully agree) because he spoke from his experience, and I respect that. I can't say the same about this post because it's primarily engaged in arguing that hypothetically someone somewhere might be hurt by this language (including the implication we shouldn't call Biden old because people with progeria might be hurt which is... a take I guess.) If actual comrades want to speak out about how this language affects them, I'm certainly willing to listen. I think you meant well with this post, but while I don't want Chapo to be a space where people are made unwelcome by the discourse, I also don't want it to be a place where comrades are judged more by the manner in which they express themselves than the content of what they're saying.
I responded positively to Quill’s earlier thread (even if I didn’t fully agree) because he spoke from his experience, and I respect that. I can’t say the same about this post because it’s primarily engaged in arguing that hypothetically someone somewhere might be hurt by this language (including the implication we shouldn’t call Biden old because people with progeria might be hurt which is… a take I guess.) If actual comrades want to speak out about how this language affects them, I’m certainly willing to listen
Just gonna say, this part resonates with me.
If an affected comrade voices a complaint about something specific, we should reconsider in that instance. Otherwise it’s fair game. (And boomers don’t get a say—sorry folks, I’m not willing to bury that hatchet.)
After what happened when I spoke up last time and some reactions to this post, that's a pretty big ask. I don't think most people get just how hard it is to talk about this stuff when the typical reaction to it is what it has been. I've talked to a lot of my friends and comrades about what happened, and the chilling effect is very real, and very very disheartening
I'd never ask one of my nd comrades to voice their concern if it could get them dogpiled and invalidated en masse.
And I'll point out again that this isn't even in reference to people using intelligence based insults, but how they react to the mere suggestion of avoiding it on a personal level.
Yeah, there’s been some reactionary elements here, even if the overall response has come out positive. And this is probably one of the more progressive places outside of explicitly ND spaces, which only says how bad the reaction must be elsewhere.
I’m more saying, now that you’ve raised intelligence-based stuff, I’ll try to avoid those.
this whole post just reads like "we should be nicer to people" but with extra steps
Being mean is part of the foundational ethos of this community
Admittedly, it's meanness in the right direction, but still
So what the fuck can we call people? If I cant insult strangers on the internet what's the fucking point.
You could ignore loser posts like this and just keep living calling chuds morons.
Okay there's a lot of good points, and I by and large agree, but did you say you MASTURBATED??
What people seem to forget is that there is a difference between ignorance and lack of intelligence
It's an important distinction to make, at least in my opinionYeah I guess this is the most difficult part of all of it for me. At what point does/can willfully ignorance turn into stupidity?
I agree! Everyone is ignorant of everything until the moment they happen to learn about it, its being given an opportunity to learn and grow as a person but deciding to remain ignorant instead that is pathetic and should be the focus of our scorn
Yes. A revolution after which I cannot call people nerds anymore is not a revolution I will fight for.
No, because you're immediately othering someone. Only nerds may address other nerds as such.
I wanted to call some dumb lib shit dumb the other day, remembered the finger-wagging from before, and and then just didn't bother to contribute at all because I didn't want to deal with getting scolded for using words in the regular english vernacular. You'll lose a lot of people commenting, and for what? Is anyone actually going to feel safer or more catered to because we banned the word "stupid"?
Ideas can be dumb. Things can be stupid. It's not targeting any group of people. And as some other comrades said, intelligence itself isn't fixed or a single-dimensional trait. I'm dumb about some stuff. I'm really fucking smart in other ways. Positivity is a nice goal and we can be nicer to each other but if you call some dumb chud a dumb chud, who's actually going to get offended?
Beyond that, boomer is a mindset, and one which is worth dunking on.
Dude subreddits like /r/socialism that are rampant with censorship are so fuckin annoying. You're constantly self-censoring and typing in fear that your comment is gonna get auto-moderated because you used a word in a non-offensive context. If I want to say "Donald Trump is the dumbest man alive" who is going to get offended by that, seriously?
I've been thinking about this for a while and have been trying to wean myself off intelligence based insults because of that. It's surprisingly pervasive in our culture once you start seeing it, and then you see the statistics for how often people with low "cognitive ability" get abused it's... hard to ignore. it's not even people with developmental disabilities, it's also the elderly, the mentally ill, or anyone too different like autistics are dehumanized in the same manner. It's directly linked to the capitalist culture of equating worth with production value.
Surely we can come up with insults that don't enforce capitalist ideals of value instead of some nebulously defined insults based on "craziness" or "idiocy". If someone takes a long time to learn ideas, that's fine, they still have value as a human. If someone is not neurotypical, they still have value as a human. What isn't fine is using your ignorance as a weapon or refusing to learn, and it's perfectly fine to call someone out on that, because you are calling them out on a choice they have made.
And i'll offer a brief rebuttal of "yeah but trump is dumb." The problem isn't that he's "dumb", the problem is he's an fascist, and his cognitive issues such as lack of understanding, bad memory, sun-downing, not reading his briefings etc are all separate and distinct problems that should have prevented him from being president in any society that actually cares about it's people. People with dementia shouldn't be in positions of power, i don't think that's contentious to say. People who golf instead of doing their jobs should also not be in positions of power. And we all know how we feel about fascists.
And finally, by focusing your ire on Trump being "stupid" you're actually giving them an excuse. People with cognitive disabilities cannot control their intelligence and we must judge their actions by the standard that they don't fully understand our rules and norms. Trump or any other ruling class fascist is not doing the things they are doing out of implicit lack of understanding. They are doing it because they are trying to extract profit from us in the most efficient way they know how, by grinding our bones through a meat grinder for The Line.
A message to the random person stumbling across this post and immediately downvoting:
If you’re not going to read through and engage with this in good faith, don’t downvote it either just go elsewhere. No ones bossing anyone around, no ones telling you you’re a bad person. Upvote for exposure and beyond that fuck off if you can’t be constructive.
Thanks for thinking about the impact of your actions comrade. I completely forgive you for what happened before, because I can see you’ve really made an effort to face up to why you did what you did and make an effort not to in the future.
No one is perfect and we all fuck up and hurt people sometimes, but at the end of the day doing what you’ve done here is the way forwards (not deciding to be against intelligence based insults, but doing real self crit and acting on it)
Thanks comrade <3
Edit: for real, who downvotes this? how salty and toxic do you have to be lol
Thanks man. It's no problem.
I probably won't be perfect for a while but I'm going to second guess myself on my old habits as much as I can
That's all anyone can do. Being aware how easy it is to fuck up and how often you have in the past makes you look at yourself and your actions more carefully and critically, and for me at least has been the biggest source for my growth as a person
I agree that "ugly" and "short are bad insults though. Specifically because I am both.
citations needed sorry fam facts don’t care about your feelings. This report here says ur QT
