It's also rather regional and historical. It's not an outlandish claim in that it used to be true for some people. For example, for a lot of hilbilly Puerto Ricans who were poor as shit, joining the military WAS one of the only ways to lift your family out of poverty. Lots of lower middle class Puerto Rican families have grandparents that were former military, and they only got there because they kind of had no other option at the time.
Nowadays it's mostly kids who grew up with military family who join and not necessarily to escape abject poverty like back in the day.
There are those who join for economic reasons still, but to claim that the majority of people join for economic reasons while all data shows otherwise is a form of very subtle propoganda imo
I can't speak to the economic status of of the military, but I think it would make more sense from a propo standpoint if you say they did not join for economic reasons. Like, saying it was type of calling, or something.
The US definitely does both. The whole joining for patriotic reasons propoganda is aimed at right leaning folks, and the joining for economic reasons is aimed at left leaning people.
Using Bureau of Labor Statistics data from 1997 to 2008, they found that the services have recruited primarily from the middle class, America’s largest socio-economic demographic.
If we're Marxists, which I hope to fuck some of you are, you know that the term "middle class" is arbitrary as fuck. The "middle class" in this country is not the house with white picket fence and two dogs shit, and it hasn't been that since the 1970s. The "middle class" in this country are not bourgeoisie and the vast vast majority of them are not petite bourgeoisie either. They are employees, they are proles; unless you want to make the MTW argument that there are no proles in the US, which is a completely different conversation.
This article also doesn't differentiate between officers and enlisted, which are two different ballgames. Officers are generally scum and come from higher income backgrounds.
I mean I'm not American so I'm just going to be honest and very blunt here, I don't get this argument for joining at all. The US military complex has literally assisted in the ruining of hundreds of countries, including mine (research about US support for Apartheid South Africa). By joining, even in a non combat or deployment role, these people are directly assisting the US military in the destabilisation of countries worldwide. It's just such a uninformed mindset, "oh I can't find a job so I'm going to directly assist in the destruction of your country". The left in America should absolutely talk to veterans and potential recruits to prevent them joining, but fuck as a non American that has to live with the consequences of America supporting
and providing military assistance to the apartheid government (including in covering up nuclear weapons tests) my empathy is really low for shit like this. Even when I was 16 I knew it was wrong to join an imperialist military, my empathy is just really low for shit like this.
Nice to see that the continuous struggle sessions about US soldiers continued onto the new site. Nobody else, no matter how terrible their material conditions, gets as much leeway from American lefties as the poor little US soldier lmao
"Oh, I was going to be sympathetic towards abolishing homelessness, but you made fun of US imperial forces in a meme, so I have no choice but to support Tom Cotton for president" - the theoretical US troop
I mean I get it, there's a ton of propaganda and incentives to join the military as an American citizen. But at some point you have to pick what side you're on, and the US military is not on the side of the people anywhere on this planet.
Still, at some point you have to pick a side, and if America invades my country or starts CIA ops in the coming future I'm not going to give two shits about what propoganda they were under or how they couldn't get a job and want free college. I'm going to want them the fuck out.
I'm sorry but thinking you're going to get the military on your side is incredibly idealistic. Look at how well that worked with cops or the DHS. This is because, contrary to popular belief in leftist circles, the majority of the military are essentially upper class people volunteering their service out of love for the empire. Chuds essentially. I know this is a bit out of date and from the heritage Foundation, but it's a good read none the less.
Ok how about a source from 2018 from the Undersecretary of defense, I sorry for using the heritage Foundation as a source.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military
Look at the share of recruits by neighborhood income level graph, the rich are almost absent but the upper middle class and middle class are overrepresented, with those earning less than 40k a year slightly underrepresented.
Yeah after closer inspection the heritage Foundation document is pure trash. While the neighborhood analysis is flawed, when combined with other data it paints a picture. Military recruits are more likely to come from the southern states, more likely to have grown up in wealthier neighborhoods, and no more racially diverse than the general population. They aren't exactly ripe for communist radicalisation. That doesn't mean Americans shouldn't try, they should absolutely try to radicalise the troops and get them on their side. But at the same time Americans should not be surprised if the troops turned on them in the same way the police and DHS have, and definitely should have other plans than just radicalising the troops.
I'd argue you that they don't and can easily believe that they're doing the right thing by killing the person who they're being told wants to kill them.
You know, the whole right-wing MO, the thing that all Fascists believe.
What you likely would do if a Fascist came to kill you, kill him first.
Not only has this struggle session followed from the sub, up until this thread I feel like every time it's come up, the people making excuses for the troops seemed to be the only people talking, I thought I was going crazy
I just think there's some stuff that should remain an intra-community discussion. Americans talking to other Americans about how to turn their vets into comrades - ok, whatever, go forth, do your thing. But if chapochat is supposed to be for people from around the world, then it just becomes bizarre to watch one person say that their country is being hurt by US military policy, and then get a whole group of people trying to convince them that akshually, the soldiers carrying out said policy just want college, you have to understand... To put it crudely, there's certainly a lot of worth in discussing the material conditions of Germans in the 1930s, but you don't necessarily have to discuss them while a person from 1940s Belarus is in the room.
Funny how we don't see that sympathy for any other horrible military organisation. Excited to defend the IDF the same way: "Well you don't understand, they're conscripted, they'd go to jail if they refuse to serve, they'd have difficulty finding a good job if it came out that they didn't serve, their propaganda is so intense, most are in a supporting role anyway, how do you think Israeli leftists will fight off fascists if they're the only ones NOT trained, they're just 18 and there's intense social pressure from all their friends joining at the same time..." I'm sure I won't get branded a fash sympathiser or anything :)
Eh, prison would be pretty extreme. There are plenty of ways to be free of the military without too heavy consequences. Probably not a common example, but I was able to barracks lawyer my way into getting booted out to avoid stop-loss and a 2nd deployment, while still keeping my benefits. There are ways, and I think these ways are key to help turn some of them...
One thing you should all be aware of in discussions about "the troops": The GI Rights Hotline. From their website:
Since 1994, the GI Rights Hotline has been providing free, confidential, and accurate information on US military regulations and practices to servicemembers, veterans, potential recruits, and their families.
We are a consortium of nearly twenty non-governmental, non-profit organizations located in eleven states and in Germany. Some of our counselors are veterans, some are lawyers and some have decades of military counseling experience. We are in constant contact with each other to stay up-to-date on the latest military regulations and practices.
We provide resources and counseling options. Many of us are not lawyers and therefore cannot give legal advice, but, in cases in which an attorney might be useful, we may be able to help you find one.
Why is this important? Basically they act as expert advocates for soldiers who generally have no clue about their rights and/or navigating the military legal system. If soldiers are trying to get out, or are in trouble for something else, like failing a piss test, these people can help them break free with the least amount of damage to their record.
In addition to the GI Rights Hotline, there are some veteran's antiwar groups like About Face and Iraq Veterans Against the War who are also extremely helpful in this regard.
Yeah that's fine but if it gets to the point you're deployed as an imperialist tool overseas you have a moral obligation to quit.
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Well prison or murder innocent civilians overseas, your choice. Or just don't join in the first place.
Btw I'm not downbearing you, it's interesting to hear other perspectives
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I remember reading a thread on old Chapo that actually debunked the claim that most recruits do it for economic reasons
The claim that most troops join for economic reasons is propaganda to try get citizens to emphasize with the military imo
It's also rather regional and historical. It's not an outlandish claim in that it used to be true for some people. For example, for a lot of hilbilly Puerto Ricans who were poor as shit, joining the military WAS one of the only ways to lift your family out of poverty. Lots of lower middle class Puerto Rican families have grandparents that were former military, and they only got there because they kind of had no other option at the time.
Nowadays it's mostly kids who grew up with military family who join and not necessarily to escape abject poverty like back in the day.
There are those who join for economic reasons still, but to claim that the majority of people join for economic reasons while all data shows otherwise is a form of very subtle propoganda imo
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I can't speak to the economic status of of the military, but I think it would make more sense from a propo standpoint if you say they did not join for economic reasons. Like, saying it was type of calling, or something.
The US definitely does both. The whole joining for patriotic reasons propoganda is aimed at right leaning folks, and the joining for economic reasons is aimed at left leaning people.
If we're Marxists, which I hope to fuck some of you are, you know that the term "middle class" is arbitrary as fuck. The "middle class" in this country is not the house with white picket fence and two dogs shit, and it hasn't been that since the 1970s. The "middle class" in this country are not bourgeoisie and the vast vast majority of them are not petite bourgeoisie either. They are employees, they are proles; unless you want to make the MTW argument that there are no proles in the US, which is a completely different conversation.
This article also doesn't differentiate between officers and enlisted, which are two different ballgames. Officers are generally scum and come from higher income backgrounds.
I mean I'm not American so I'm just going to be honest and very blunt here, I don't get this argument for joining at all. The US military complex has literally assisted in the ruining of hundreds of countries, including mine (research about US support for Apartheid South Africa). By joining, even in a non combat or deployment role, these people are directly assisting the US military in the destabilisation of countries worldwide. It's just such a uninformed mindset, "oh I can't find a job so I'm going to directly assist in the destruction of your country". The left in America should absolutely talk to veterans and potential recruits to prevent them joining, but fuck as a non American that has to live with the consequences of America supporting and providing military assistance to the apartheid government (including in covering up nuclear weapons tests) my empathy is really low for shit like this. Even when I was 16 I knew it was wrong to join an imperialist military, my empathy is just really low for shit like this.
Nice to see that the continuous struggle sessions about US soldiers continued onto the new site. Nobody else, no matter how terrible their material conditions, gets as much leeway from American lefties as the poor little US soldier lmao
"Oh, I was going to be sympathetic towards abolishing homelessness, but you made fun of US imperial forces in a meme, so I have no choice but to support Tom Cotton for president" - the theoretical US troop
I mean I get it, there's a ton of propaganda and incentives to join the military as an American citizen. But at some point you have to pick what side you're on, and the US military is not on the side of the people anywhere on this planet.
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Still, at some point you have to pick a side, and if America invades my country or starts CIA ops in the coming future I'm not going to give two shits about what propoganda they were under or how they couldn't get a job and want free college. I'm going to want them the fuck out.
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I'm sorry but thinking you're going to get the military on your side is incredibly idealistic. Look at how well that worked with cops or the DHS. This is because, contrary to popular belief in leftist circles, the majority of the military are essentially upper class people volunteering their service out of love for the empire. Chuds essentially. I know this is a bit out of date and from the heritage Foundation, but it's a good read none the less.
https://www.heritage.org/defense/report/who-serves-the-us-military-the-demographics-enlisted-troops-and-officers
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Ok how about a source from 2018 from the Undersecretary of defense, I sorry for using the heritage Foundation as a source.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military
Look at the share of recruits by neighborhood income level graph, the rich are almost absent but the upper middle class and middle class are overrepresented, with those earning less than 40k a year slightly underrepresented.
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Yeah after closer inspection the heritage Foundation document is pure trash. While the neighborhood analysis is flawed, when combined with other data it paints a picture. Military recruits are more likely to come from the southern states, more likely to have grown up in wealthier neighborhoods, and no more racially diverse than the general population. They aren't exactly ripe for communist radicalisation. That doesn't mean Americans shouldn't try, they should absolutely try to radicalise the troops and get them on their side. But at the same time Americans should not be surprised if the troops turned on them in the same way the police and DHS have, and definitely should have other plans than just radicalising the troops.
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I'd argue you that they don't and can easily believe that they're doing the right thing by killing the person who they're being told wants to kill them.
You know, the whole right-wing MO, the thing that all Fascists believe.
What you likely would do if a Fascist came to kill you, kill him first.
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You don't get it.
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Not only has this struggle session followed from the sub, up until this thread I feel like every time it's come up, the people making excuses for the troops seemed to be the only people talking, I thought I was going crazy
I just think there's some stuff that should remain an intra-community discussion. Americans talking to other Americans about how to turn their vets into comrades - ok, whatever, go forth, do your thing. But if chapochat is supposed to be for people from around the world, then it just becomes bizarre to watch one person say that their country is being hurt by US military policy, and then get a whole group of people trying to convince them that akshually, the soldiers carrying out said policy just want college, you have to understand... To put it crudely, there's certainly a lot of worth in discussing the material conditions of Germans in the 1930s, but you don't necessarily have to discuss them while a person from 1940s Belarus is in the room.
They're literally repeating the phrasing in the meme, zero self awareness
Funny how we don't see that sympathy for any other horrible military organisation. Excited to defend the IDF the same way: "Well you don't understand, they're conscripted, they'd go to jail if they refuse to serve, they'd have difficulty finding a good job if it came out that they didn't serve, their propaganda is so intense, most are in a supporting role anyway, how do you think Israeli leftists will fight off fascists if they're the only ones NOT trained, they're just 18 and there's intense social pressure from all their friends joining at the same time..." I'm sure I won't get branded a fash sympathiser or anything :)
Yes.
Eh, prison would be pretty extreme. There are plenty of ways to be free of the military without too heavy consequences. Probably not a common example, but I was able to barracks lawyer my way into getting booted out to avoid stop-loss and a 2nd deployment, while still keeping my benefits. There are ways, and I think these ways are key to help turn some of them...
One thing you should all be aware of in discussions about "the troops": The GI Rights Hotline. From their website:
Why is this important? Basically they act as expert advocates for soldiers who generally have no clue about their rights and/or navigating the military legal system. If soldiers are trying to get out, or are in trouble for something else, like failing a piss test, these people can help them break free with the least amount of damage to their record.
In addition to the GI Rights Hotline, there are some veteran's antiwar groups like About Face and Iraq Veterans Against the War who are also extremely helpful in this regard.