currently being yelled at for "denying genocide" 🙃
the china threads are always fun, always someone who decides to spend more time arguing with everyone on the internet than actually spend time learning and studying about the thing they're angry about
Man how are any of you getting to the point of feeling confident enough about your own conclusions about a blurry phenomena half-a-world away to get into shouting matches about it.
Someone could give me an argument for how World War 1 never actually happened and I'd be like "cool, someone else should look into that I'm not a historian but the tanks were pretty cool. "
a blurry phenomena half-a-world away
smoothbrain doesn't know about the CIA's long history of manufacturing consent.
So there are three possible questions .
Is China doing a genocide? No, you can tell because if china was just wasting Muslims left and right they would be a US ally. Is China doing human rights violations doing a residential school type program to erase the ughyr cultural identity? Probably not, but I would have a hard time proving it so I am glad people only complain about the fake genocide stuff. Is China taking a population of poor people and teaching them language and job skills which will make them a more key part of the next world hegemony in a way that means their grand kids will live better than my grand kids stuck here in america? Without a doubt yes.I can't help but point out that "taking a population of poor people and teaching them language and job skills which will make them a more key part of the next world hegemony" smells a LOT like kidnapping indigenous children and teaching them english and basic skills so they can function within the empire that will soon dominate their homeland and erase their culture. I struggle to accept that any "world hegemony" that functions by homogenizing and integrating populations to use as capital in its growing machine is not an empire. Don't get me wrong there is no proof that China has the infrastructure necessary to commit any Final Solution style genocide but that doesn't mean we can turn a blind eye to internal colonialism. If this were any outwardly capitalist country would we be so eager to defend them?
There's over 12 million Uyghurs in Xinjiang, this is not done on ANY scale that indicates any sort of systemic cultural extermination or suppression. People practice their religion and culture freely, the whole thing is aimed at Wahhabist influence across the region, not either indigenous people or indigenous culture. Theres probably overstepping but its ridiculous what people are claiming is happening or what they think Xinjiang is like. Wages have been going up, the population has been going up, living conditions have been improving, life expectancy has been improving. What exactly do you think development is outside of 1st world countries? China has lifted more people out of poverty than the US and Europe combined, its hardly contentious to try and educate and give people jobs and good living conditions.
WTF they're doing cultural genocide against foreign Wahhabi/Salafist reactionaries trying to build the ETIM that are suspiciously well funded? I can't believe people could even think of siding with China against the same gentle innocent Wahhabi/Salafist reactionary movement that created ISIS. We must defend reactionary extremists against the evils of Chinese education!
People keep bringing up these "violent Wahhabist reactionaries" and yet I can't find any evidence of a militant puritanical movement in the region. All I can find are separatist groups trying to recover their land that Beijing annexed decades ago. The only coherent Islamic organizations I can find in the region are Sufi tariqas, which by their very nature as mystical and (arguably) semi-syncretic movements are diametrically opposed to puritanism. Beijing has already signaled its suspicion or even dislike of Islam by doing things like banning Halal products and razing mosques and rebuilding them in the shape of Buddhist temples. Talk about thinking critically about state department narratives, the west has used Salafism as a code for "any Muslims willing to fight against our exploitation of their people and resources" for decades now. Christ if we learn anything from the Middle-East-Forever-War it should be that repressing religious communities to try and impose our own ideals is a completely futile and quite frankly horrifying practice. China does not need to fear Wahhabis or Salafis or any of the Muslims who are actually in Xinjiang, they just want the rich natural resources of the area and to completely homogenize the population by overrunning minority regions with Han settlers. Xinjiang does not belong to Han China, it belongs to Uighurs. The idea that Beijing has some obligation to "uplift" the population of Turkestan through what I can only call Hanification is no different than the White Man's Burden to "civilize" indigenous Americans and Africans. Is the core tenet of anti imperialism not "If someone doesn't actively want to be a part your nation, leave them the fuck alone?"
People keep bringing up these “violent Wahhabist reactionaries” and yet I can’t find any evidence of a militant puritanical movement in the region.
Oh worm?
All I see in this article is systematic discrimination and abuse of an ethnic minority by the Han. It makes no mention of any militant organization, but it is a great example of how they develop. Yeah, cultural and ethnic discrimination in a region that was militarily annexed by the very ethnic majority that abuses them will breed anti establishment sentiment in the population. That is not a purely Muslim phenomenon, nor is it entirely unjustified. Being told to just accept that you must integrate into a new nation where you will forever be a minority stigmatized for your cultural background is very worth resistance as far as I'm concerned. This article even outlines how Uighurs are forced to do things that are directly opposed to their religious beliefs and effectively make them sinners. I'm not sure what you see in this article that I don't, but if you're opposed to ethnic minorities rioting against systemic abuse then I think we're not on the same page.
I linked to a Twitter thread that explains a lot, and you read the article? Why?
Really, no evidence? How about some very western sources. Repressing religious reactionaries is the job of communists and must be done to prevent them from instituting a dictatorship of first estate bourgeoisie. Beijing is obligated to take the mass line in Xianjiang and use it to improve the lives of those living there as well as defend the dictatorship of the proletariat against the depredation of bourgeois fifth columnists since the territory was liberated from the KMT in 1949. Are you saying that anti-imperialism is allowing separatist movements to balkanize into nations too weak to defend against imperialist depredation? Should Tibet be "freed" so that it's old national bourgeoisie can reinstate feudal slavery?
foreign Wahhabi/Salafist reactionaries trying to build the ETIM that are suspiciously well funded
russiagate for smoothbrain tankies. Also look up what "reactionary" means, I think being reactionary against a colonialist project to remove a group of people for the sake of your market is communism.
It still looks pretty sketchy and should be watched closely to make sure nothing bad is going on. Which it doesn't appear to be so far.
its hardly contentious to try and educate and give people jobs and good living conditions.
tankies will never, ever use Marxism, can you think of a reason why?
you are right it violates every one of our enlightenment principles. However if it is the best possible case it represents a significant improvement to the lives of those people and their children. If it is shitty it is BS and we don't have to do a struggle session about it. However if they are actually trying to do a good thing you have to ask how many children need to go blind from vitamin A deficiency to maintain their traditional way of life.
Sub point to that. If they are poor Muslim goat herders , their culture would probably offend all of your enlightenment values anyway. At the risk of going mega tankie here. If we agree MLM is the best political though, then replacing shitty political thought with it would be an improvement. Both on a level of personal happiness and material conditions. This is how Engels conceptualized idealism right? People act in according to the values allowing for material conditions. Like, suppose you are a 16 year old girl going to get married, do you want your husband to husband to marry you and treat you in the way of a traditional poor Muslim farm wife? Or would you rather he know that women have better sex under communism and be a proper Marxist catgirl like the rest of us?
While I agree with your point that by our concept of living standards it would benefit the population of Xinjiang to join with Beijing, forcing them to do so will not create Marxists it will create fascists and radicals. Communism can only spread effectively through self determination. When the people of Turkestan realize how much they would benefit by changing their practices, they will do so and our global movement will rejoice with blackjack and hookers. However, it is impossible to force an ideology without creating an equal or greater opposition movement. Look at the former Warsaw Pact states. states like Estonia that were subject to heavy occupation and Marxist Rusificitation now have the largest ardently fascist populations. If the United States' global efforts have taught us one thing, it is that revolutions must be supported, not created, if they are to succeed.
Is China doing a genocide? No, you can tell because if china was just wasting Muslims left and right they would be a US ally.
Show me a place where the heuristic breaks down. In almost every possible case if a country is a US ally we are having them do dirty work for us. It isn't a definitive test. It is however a sufficient test for a baseless claim like we have here.
It's always been about resources, Islam was just a boogeyman. Else the US would have made countries like Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Bangladesh their priority.
https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1287411708374454273
also r/Sino has some pretty comprehensive posts on it
https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/hzphui/every_uyghur_allegation_debunked_as_of_2020_july/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/i6axdt/a_well_sourced_160_page_google_document_debunking/
It's not genocide but repression of Uighurs in China is both real and bad
If you define eradicating Islamist extremism as a cultural genocide, then yes, China is doing one of those.
Read the CCP's own document on this: http://english.www.gov.cn/archive/white_paper/2019/03/18/content_281476567813306.htm
If they mean a killing people type of genocide, then simply no.
As someone in Marketing, both horrified and impressed such an obvious ploy got through. But then, we all remember "Gay girl in Damascus" don't we?
Protips for how to defend China:
-
stop comparing everything to the US, it's the ultimate albatross, pure whataboutism, there's 200 other countries, stop framing everything in binaries
-
stop using Chinese state-sponsored media for everything, it's purely tautological and won't persuade anyone already skeptical, get more creative and diverse with your sources
-
the most persuasive argument you can make is one from the heart and in your own words, if you need to refer me to a 3-hour lecture or 15,000-word pdf, you've already lost the plot.
-
If they're called "China bad" they are making their "bad" assessment based on a comparison to something else in their life they do not consider bad or accept and do not relentlessly attack every day. Benchmarking China against something they accept is obvious and necessary.
-
I really haven't seen anyone use anything other than non-chinese sources.
-
When the opponent provides "evidence" it is necessary to perform takedowns of that evidence. Those get lengthy. The imperial machine is outputting a MASSIVE amount of fake shit and every single one of those things has to be taken down. This is how it gets to be ridiculously lengthy.
-
-
Not a valid argument. If you point out your opponent lives in a hellish evil empire I think that's a very valid point as to why they should spend less time jerking off about China bad and more time fixing their own backyard. Also it is impossible to begin to evaluate claims and propaganda claims without understanding a little bit about how bad the US is, how evil they are and how much propaganda they've spewed, how many lies they've told to their own people. That is very relevant, in fact it's the only emotional argument from 3 that has any real bearing. Also whataboutism is not a valid logical fallacy, it's something invented by cold war journalist hacks. https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-66-whataboutism-the-medias-favorite-rhetorical-shield-against-criticism-of-us-policy Either educate yourself about it or shut the fuck up.
-
What would you suggest? Western media is in lock-step. Short of the greyzone you're not going to find many western sources. Citing some sources is better than just "I feel".
-
That's not a good reason to believe anything. While that may be a valid debate tactic if you're getting into the nitty-gritty people are going to be hitting you with western propaganda sources, specific claims and demanding you answer to or rebut them, if your response is "China is good and America is bad and lies about everything and I feel communism will improve the world" you're going to convince exactly no one and worse make your side look even weaker as the people who witnessed it will recall it as a communist "tankie" being destroyed with facts and logic and having nothing but baseless personal appeals about feelings. That doesn't mean you can't put it in your own words and summarize for people while backing up claims with citations but you do need something other than your own words to back those up or you'll be dismissed out of hand.
Pro-tips for OP: Do not listen to ignorant liberals like this person.
- is actually a very good argument because OP asked about DEBUNKING the genocide myths not bouncing the ball back to Us territory.
-
-
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/edit?usp=sharing
