I'll also respond to your edit - why is it that we can say leaders we look up to (myself included) could have been better on things like queer rights or the USSR's awkward handling of religion, but when we suggest they could do better on the way they treat animals it's suddenly taken entirely bad faith? People are not perfect. Even the greatest revolutionaries of the past had missteps. We recognize where they could improve and celebrate what they accomplished. What you're doing is bad faith and honestly more anti-communist than me
Last time I got linked to the vegan/Marxist theory the first recommended essay led with something to the effect of anarchists care about animals and Marxists typically hate them....so I stopped reading it.
Citations needed for it being anything else. And if you want to limit it to "human" then why not limit it to a specific class or race of human? Exploitation is exploitation. Suffering is suffering. If you aren't interested in the abolition of all of it, then I would contend you are not. a. leftist.
Doesn't matter though, who gives a shit about matters of "vastly greater" (as defined by who?) degree. Exploitation is exploitation and suffering is suffering. Period. Fucking nerd.
The uhh, taxonomic system? The fact that humans can produce offspring with each other but not other animals? The fact that humans are capable of intelligent communication and all but maybe the very smartest non-human animals (e.g. dolphins) aren't?
Do you really want to say the difference between races is the same as the difference between humans and other animals? Because yikes.
Oh, so it's a matter of taxonomy, then? Not the capacity for suffering? Hmmm.. seems to me there were some eugenicists that made similar arguments. Go figure.
Right, that's exactly what is meant by "exploitation" in Marxist theory. So smrt. Even if that were the case, our inability to separate out the use of things like wind and land from SENTIENT FUCKING BEINGS that feel pain and are capable of suffering is just testament to our inability to empathize with anything than isn't "like" you. That's a very typical liberal problem that you suffer from and you'd do well to do some self crit on it if you think of yourself as anything beond a larping leftist. Really, this is kindergarten-level discourse.
It's to create a classless stateless society. this is a liberal definition that doesn't mean anything. Marxism/Communism cannot simply encompass all ails. It's a very specific analysis. And Understanding that it's a purely economic analysis is important to understanding why many previous socialist states were bad on things like animal liberation, foreign policy, etc without resulting to a (once again, liberal) conclusion of "Guess they didn't want to end exploitation and suffering enough."
And, less so the links to theory and such, but more so glib insults and 15 comment-long insult exchanges, defending those under the idea of "we're pro animal liberation per site policy" is insinuating any of this furthers the cause of animal liberation in any way. The idea that "posting is praxis" used to be derided endlessly on this site. There are also site rules against hostility.
I really don't have a problem with circlejerk posting when its framed as what it is, but VCJ crew seems to have developed a specific brainworm that Anything Happening On This Site Matters.
Social organization to do what exactly?
I'll also respond to your edit - why is it that we can say leaders we look up to (myself included) could have been better on things like queer rights or the USSR's awkward handling of religion, but when we suggest they could do better on the way they treat animals it's suddenly taken entirely bad faith? People are not perfect. Even the greatest revolutionaries of the past had missteps. We recognize where they could improve and celebrate what they accomplished. What you're doing is bad faith and honestly more anti-communist than me
Apparently, the goal of communism is to stop eating meat.
The goal of communism is to end exploitation and suffering. If you just like hurting animals, that's your own problem
Citation needed
Here you go! https://mronline.org/2018/08/28/18-theses-on-marxism-and-animal-liberation
Then you can read the rest of !vegan's Vegan Marxist Masterpost (link)
I'm so glad you asked for sources
Last time I got linked to the vegan/Marxist theory the first recommended essay led with something to the effect of anarchists care about animals and Marxists typically hate them....so I stopped reading it.
All I can say is this was compiled by someone who's an ML, so these resources wouldn't be like that
I'm talking about the vegan masterpost you linked.
Ahh so you haven't read it at all then :stalin-approval:
Citations needed for it being anything else. And if you want to limit it to "human" then why not limit it to a specific class or race of human? Exploitation is exploitation. Suffering is suffering. If you aren't interested in the abolition of all of it, then I would contend you are not. a. leftist.
Because the difference between humans and other animals is vastly greater than the difference between culturally made up classes and races of people?
Now who needs their citations? :blob-no-thoughts:
Doesn't matter though, who gives a shit about matters of "vastly greater" (as defined by who?) degree. Exploitation is exploitation and suffering is suffering. Period. Fucking nerd.
The uhh, taxonomic system? The fact that humans can produce offspring with each other but not other animals? The fact that humans are capable of intelligent communication and all but maybe the very smartest non-human animals (e.g. dolphins) aren't?
Do you really want to say the difference between races is the same as the difference between humans and other animals? Because yikes.
Oh, so it's a matter of taxonomy, then? Not the capacity for suffering? Hmmm.. seems to me there were some eugenicists that made similar arguments. Go figure.
I would like to exploit some wind energy, some trees, some labor from myself and others, and on and on. I am an exploiter.
Right, that's exactly what is meant by "exploitation" in Marxist theory. So smrt. Even if that were the case, our inability to separate out the use of things like wind and land from SENTIENT FUCKING BEINGS that feel pain and are capable of suffering is just testament to our inability to empathize with anything than isn't "like" you. That's a very typical liberal problem that you suffer from and you'd do well to do some self crit on it if you think of yourself as anything beond a larping leftist. Really, this is kindergarten-level discourse.
In a communist society I would hope we would be exploiting all kinds of things, or else I don't see the point.
It's to create a classless stateless society. this is a liberal definition that doesn't mean anything. Marxism/Communism cannot simply encompass all ails. It's a very specific analysis. And Understanding that it's a purely economic analysis is important to understanding why many previous socialist states were bad on things like animal liberation, foreign policy, etc without resulting to a (once again, liberal) conclusion of "Guess they didn't want to end exploitation and suffering enough."
And, less so the links to theory and such, but more so glib insults and 15 comment-long insult exchanges, defending those under the idea of "we're pro animal liberation per site policy" is insinuating any of this furthers the cause of animal liberation in any way. The idea that "posting is praxis" used to be derided endlessly on this site. There are also site rules against hostility.
I really don't have a problem with circlejerk posting when its framed as what it is, but VCJ crew seems to have developed a specific brainworm that Anything Happening On This Site Matters.