My history teacher brought up the subject of the Korean war and went into the usual liberal analysis. I raised my hand once in class to bring up the point of sanctions and their effect on the DPRK's economy, which she conceded. This is the email I sent afterwards:
- Who started the Korean War?
The dividing line was drawn by the U.S. without a democratic vote and so that the U.S could have Seoul (which was the traditional capital of the Korean Peninsula) in their occupied territory. (see p. 73 of Gowans’ Patriots, Traitors and Empires, 2018). The Japanese collaboration, concentration camps for leftists, the massacre of student protestors at Syngman Rhee’s palace in 1960 (see p. 349 of Bruce Cumings’ Korea’s Place in the Sun: A Modern History, 2005), were clearly not indicative of a “democratic south”.
"Korea is a major responsibility which we [Amerikans] as a world power have voluntarily assumed. . . . We have committed here some of our most excruciating errors.... Opinion polls show that 64 out of every 100 Koreans dislike us." Mark Gayn in New York Star, November, 1947.
So the U.S. undemocratically divided the North (the Korean peninsula was united beforehand), disregarded the pact with the USSR that the division would only exist temporarily (Gowans, ch. 4), ignored the unpopularity in their occupation of the Republic of Korea, and the North is the aggressor for invading themselves? What nonsense!
- The people believe that “Kim Il Sung is God”
You are mistaken. The “he is god” notion is a confusion. This is derived from the Ch'ŏndogyo Korean religion (see the Chondoist Chongu party represented by deputies in the SPA) which declares “we are god.” But the idea that it is widely believed that Kim Il Sung created the earth is nonsense. There is no evidence of this idea existing.
What of the notion that you can be punished if you do not have a photo of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il in your home? Again, no such idea exists. Perhaps you are referencing the story “North Korean woman executed for not saving photo.” This story is derived from [an anonymous source] in the tabloid “Daily NK” (original article here), which is funded by the NED. The NED is funded by the U.S. government. (here’s something I’ve wrote on this)
Note: Why these sensationalist stories?
- Is/Was the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” Democratic?
I have written something on this as well [see here].
- Is the DPRK an aggressor? And what is the role of “self-imposed” isolation?
Again (again). I have written a short piece on this accessible here.
- What of the photo of the contrast of lights in the Korean Peninsula?
It is true that the North has an inferior economy (this is due to sanctions first and foremost). Nonetheless, the photo used is inaccurate (see this clip; excerpt from lecture available here).
Note: I’ll link a review I wrote of B. R. Myers’ The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters since the book is cited often and the review has insights on Japanese collaboration in SK and the 2010 shelling of Yeonpyeong Island, which might be helpful.
** Someone mentioned that the calendar revolves around Kim Il Sung’s birth. This is somewhat true, for example the year is Juche 112 in the DPRK (the months are the same though, see KCNA). Many nations have different calendars, so it is not unusual for this to be the case. And it is not unusual that the founder of a nation should be incorporated into the nation’s calendar. Any critiques of a “cult of personality” (ex. the somewhat linear succession of NDC/SAC presidency) are deeply ignorant. This is a criticism of the people for electing a certain family as a direct result of the devastation (3.5 million Koreans were killed by the U.S.) and the original leadership of Kim Il Sung through this. The absolute entitlement to make the critique from the standpoint of the nation that perpetrated the massacre cannot be overstated.
Here is her response: I appreciate your thoughtful effort to clarify. I would love the chance to chat further as I have several wonderings about the information you shared. Shall we schedule a scholarly chat on the matter? Are you free for lunch sometime next week?
And my response to hers:
Sure, I’m free for lunch whenever, although I’m not sure what you mean by “wonderings about the information you shared”? Bruce Cumings is a respected Korean War scholar in the West but Stephen Gowans is not. However, his work is well sourced and derived from a lot of the research done by Gowans.
Perhaps I should clarify the division point. Gowans writes specifically, “At midnight on August 10, 1945, two US army colonels, Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel, were ordered by John J. McCloy, Assistant Secretary of War, to “find a place to divide Korea” to temporarily partition the peninsula into separate US and Soviet occupation zones to accept the Japanese surrender. McCloy, a Wall Street lawyer, would later serve as president of the World Bank, chairman of Chase Manhattan Bank and chairman of the Council on Foreign Relations. Rusk, a future US secretary of state, and Bonesteel, who would command the combined US and ROK forces in Korea in the late 1960s, chose the 38th parallel as a dividing line because it would place Seoul, Korea’s capital, within the US zone” (p. 73 of Gowans’ Patriots Traitors and Empires); Gowans cites p. 187 of Bruce Cumings’ Korea’s Place in the Sun. The two Americans who divided the peninsula had absolutely no knowledge of it, and thus the division is completely arbitrary colonial-type subjugation with no historical or geographic precedent.
The only issue I can imagine is the two youtube videos. The former is a video which puts the sensationalist stories in context and is by no means a source, merely a means of conveying my perspective whilst keeping the letter succinct. The latter is self-explanatory, a lecture from a scholar at Rutgers University. However, it is unlikely that these brief complaints were the issue, since apparently a meeting is in order. You said next week, this is fine with me.
I'm extremely worried about the meeting. Did I mishandle the emails and how should I approach the "scholarly discussion"? Any help would be appreciated.
Edit: Just noticed the typo in my reply saying that "Gowans sources Gowans" when I should have said Cumings. I have lost.
Nah I've been in this exact situation in the past as an all-to-involved-in-history-class highschool kid as it coincided with me reading A People's History. In my experience the teacher just thinks it's really neat you're so interested even if you're sucked into a perspective they perceive as fundamentally wrong (you're young so in their eyes it'll be seen as youthful rebellion). You'll get a conversation and a teacher who'll remember you for a long time, nothing bad's gonna come out of this based on your teacher's tone. Hey who knows, when it comes time to do letters of recommendations to colleges or whatever those're usually the teachers that'll write the most praise about you.
I think, in general, you don't typically get randomly pounced on and punished without some kind of persistence after a warning shot. I went through most of my childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood worried that I was going to go out of bounds somewhere and righteous, impenetrable justice was going to fall on my head. I still struggle with it to some degree. It just hasn't manifested yet. If you sent that first message, your teacher replied back with some diplomatic form of "shut the fuck up" and then you sent a second message of equal length and THEN she invited you to a scholarly discussion which you accepted arrogantly, it might be a different story. If she really thought you were evil, which is an assumption beyond thinking you're misinformed and well-intentioned, she probably wouldn't even extend the olive branch before retracting it in favor of a weapon (i.e. a cop). In my mind, best case scenario you get an actual discussion with someone who's willing to exercise rigor and an openness to new perspective which you would be able to reciprocate, another likely scenario is that you or she puts up a brick wall and goes into the discussion with axiomatic in the belief that you are correct and the other can simply agree with you or be foolish. Some kind of immediate intervention or thought-crime containment would be so beyond the pale as to be humorous. What? Are they going to charge you with sedition or treason as a high schooler? Your peer wrote a paper about how the Korean War was kind of like the Marineford Arc in One Piece.
You're past Enneis Lobby, you're here for life, comrade.
Luffy has the spirit of Che Guevara, no explanation required.
It sounds like you are doing fine, however, "Since apparently a meeting is in order." means that she WILL want to play hard-ball with facts at the meeting. It's very passive-aggressive.
However, the fact that she could not, over email, directly dispute any of the claims you've made with appropriate primary sources likely means that she will not have any outside of shitty got-chas, if she is really not trying, probably a 'documentary'. My point is, if she's generally disputing your authors but not their sources, you've already won academic-wise, now you just have to survive whatever fallout happens. This is the exact same thing that happens all over the academy. The easy part is winning the argument, the hard part is surviving the beauracratic fallout afterwards. So, be nice and agreeable, and not too combative.
Edit: She's probably not as much of a pedantic nerd as you (no offense, I am too).
She’s probably not as much of a pedantic nerd as you (no offense, I am too).
I have a friend who is a high school history teacher in the US. Not to brag, but I could run circles around him when it comes to historical knowledge, especially when it comes to 20th century history. I don't even discuss history with him anymore because I unintentionally kinda embarrassed him a couple times. I bet most people on this site who've bothered to read up on history know a lot more about the history of the 20th century that most school teachers.
And it's not just the historical materialist perspective that gives us an advantage, though that helps. Honestly, the knowledge it takes to teach history in US high schools is shockingly low.
It seems like she just wants to touch base tbh. She probably felt a little overwhelmed by all the information and sources you provided and may not have time to investigate everything. I think you're being a little too defensive, there's a good chance that she just hasn't heard your perspective before and wants to talk it over. That doesn't mean she won't be skeptical or critical.
People in this thread are being super paranoid tbh. If an invitation to chat over lunch makes you jump to the conclusion that someone is trying to cut you off from sources to own you with gotchas then it's probably time to :logout: and touch grass.
You're probably right, although I'm still nervous. In her situation as an educator I probably would have done something similar. The thing is I am really horrible at these sorts of things in person.
Try to stick to the basics, and give her space to consider it and do her own research. Don't expect her to immediately do a 180, if you plant a seed or get her to consider your perspective when she teaches, that's a big win. Even just understanding while disagreeing is still better than being totally unfamiliar with the perspective.
Thank for being the reply of reason here, most people are actually just people, and I think it's pretty accommodating of the teacher to suggest a neat conversation.
honestly I think any HS history teacher, even a lib, would appreciate a student who cares that much about the material. I think the facts and the reliable scholarship is clearly on your side, but even if you make your point clearly and confidently, I doubt you'll make much of an impact on the lesson.
I'm a high school senior and I need advice
:chomsky-yes-honey:
Your teacher's email leaves me wondering if she is trying to "gotcha" you in person where she feels more comfortable and in control of the situation. As a former history teacher, we often know barely more than the textbook, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Korean War, so she may actually be curious to learn more
One of the bigger anxieties I have as a commie parent is having to untangle all the anti-communist propaganda my kids are gonna have to deal with eventually. I'm old enough that my history classes never really got much further than WWII, but now it seems like communism and the cold war are big topics in US high school history classes; and never taught from an actually correct POV.
Damn when I was in high school I was just a dumb apolitical kid. Is it common for kids to be into politics nowadays?
I...worked on this understanding of the Korean War for a lifetime...and...they just...they emailed it out
My girlfriend is a lot younger than me (but well into her mid 20s, save it age gap shamers) and I'm blown away by how politically conscious she is. She just told her mom this morning that being a landlord that charged anywhere near market rate for housing is just stealing people's labor value. I was literally beaming inside when I heard it. Not only are the kids alright, a lot of them are pretty fucking cool.
It's funny how so many people on this site turn into prudes whenever someone is in a relationship that has an age gap larger than like three years or whatever, even if everyone involved are grown-ass adults.
Idk if it's because they can't get a date and they feel older people are unjustly taking from their dating pool or they liked someone in the past who only dated older partners or they were hurt by someone who was older or if they're just busy body moralists desperate to impose their values, but it sure is funny. See also BDSM and gas stoves.
I suppose it could be that they're just still young. I remember when I was in my teens/early twenties I didn't really have much interest in people who weren't close to my own age, but as I got to like my mid 20's I realized that even people twice my age could be attractive as fuck. And by that point, like I said, everyone is a grown-ass adult so why the fuck should anyone care.
Idk about common. I was like this though when I was in school a couple years ago, and I wasn't alone in that. I was in a boater kulak suburb in the South though, so way more chuds than leftists or even just liberals.
Edit: context
She's a North Korean sleeper agent. Report to her for your briefing and first assignment :kim-salute: .
I've taught both university and high school, and this is the kind of email you dream about getting if you're a good teacher. It's clearly something you're passionate about, and your thoughts were well-organized and clearly expressed. I don't detect any hostility from the teacher--hopefully, she's being genuine and wants to actually have a scholarly discussion with you about something you've clearly spent time thinking about. My biggest advice is to be respectful; even if you know more about this particular thing, don't treat it as a chance to dunk on her, as long as she approaches in good faith. Let it me a genuinely scholarly discussion, and explore the ideas together. This is a maturity test as much as anything.
Sounds very much like they want to do sophistry and are quite aware that they need to disconnect you from your ability to research your responses.
You weren't annoying at all, I enjoyed your engagement in the thread.
Ya did good, kid. I’ve worked as a teacher and it sounds to me like she’s not angry. Bear in mind though that she will lose her job if she shows the slightest support or understanding for the DPRK. It doesn’t matter what facts you present, nor does your politeness or logic or whatever matter. Supporting the DPRK = no more teaching for her, ever. Also just wanted to add that Ghost Flames is a great (secretly communist) book if you’re interested in the Korean War. Also, let us know how it goes, and be aware that Project Veritas or similar organizations are always looking for students or teachers whose careers they would love to destroy. If a journalist or even a random stranger or supposed expert emails you and says they want to talk about this, it means they want to get your pro-DPRK sentiments on camera, put it on Fox News, and destroy you.
ALSO, you probably already know this, but if you need support, form a student union. You meeting alone with teachers / administrators = not scary. You meeting these same people but with union backing = very scary.
Bear in mind though that she will lose her job if she shows the slightest support or understanding for the DPRK.
I dont think this is actually true though maybe it is in rich white high schools
Unless someone can show me an example of a teacher showing support for the DPRK, I won't believe it's possible. The propaganda regarding the DPRK is so much worse and so much more pervasive than that around the USSR or China, although American teachers run similar risks for even hinting that the situation in such places might not be so bad as the corporate media says. The first time I heard someone say something positive about the USSR was in (private) college from a Russian professor who had grown up there. She loved Soviet art but still wasn't crazy about the USSR itself, although she reserved most of her criticism for Putin (this was in the mid to late 2000s). I lived in South Korea for eight years, and while I never heard anyone express support for the DPRK, I quickly became aware that a large majority of people there either don't care about it or are much more interested in peace and cooperation than war. I only became aware of all the propaganda surrounding the DPRK when I became a communist some years later.
How come support cant be in the form of a normal person that is skeptical of us media and north korea propaganda and not someone who wears military uniforms and has portrait of kim jung un in their classroom
At least until China's rise in 2013 (when Xi took over), the DPRK was almost the sole justification for the presence of the US military in East Asia. Workers are free to question corporate propaganda, but PMCs will lose their jobs if they do so, and are specifically hired because they have already proven that they can be relied on to toe the ideological line. I highly recommend Jeff Schmidt's Disciplined Minds if you'd like to know more.
Our teacher actually told us that she had to take an oath that she wasn't a communist which apparently is standard practice in California since my other history teacher said the same thing.
This sounded so fucked I had to look it up. It's not exactly true. This is the text:
okie well apparently the implication was clear because both history teachers explained it in that context
Jaysus Croyst, but that doesn't make any sense because Commiefornia is RUN by communists who will tax anything, even my dick!
If you didn't hear it, the Revleft Radio episode on Gabriel Gipe is pretty relevant. He was a teacher in Caliphate-ornia, too!
I think that a simple "I would like to meet" would have been more polite, but I don't think you went beyond the pale.
Was I impolite? I had an issue with this last year when I made a comment in class about "my brain pouring out of my ears" upon hearing the U.S. history textbook account of the Black Panthers and FBI intervention.
People in this thread scare me. You picked up on something mentioned in a history class, and, personally, I think you come across pretty aggressively in both your emails.
It's really cool that the teacher has taken it in scholarly spirit, and instead of admonishing that, wants to foster your enthusiasm and have a real conversation about it. This is a very positive thing. Go to the meeting, have a nice time having a probably good-faith discussion about it. Prepare for the fact that both you and the teacher will assert things that weren't 100% accurate, that you probably won't change her mind in one day, that you can take your time about it, and that's fine.
Correcting these inaccuracies is good and very cool, proud of you. But responding to a subject being 'brought up' once with a lengthy email is quite a strong reaction, there's little to be gained from getting heated or ranting out a billion words. Have a conversation and engage with the human being as a human. That's what she's trying to do for you, it sounds like she's genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say, overall very positive.
I have no idea if this is the case with OP's teacher or not, but it's not exactly difficult to find people in the west who genuinely believe that communism is as bad as nazism, or even worse.
personally, I think you come across pretty aggressively in both your emails
god dammit
Oi, don't feel bad about that one thing. It's a positive interaction, and High school is the time to be learning this stuff, I think you're doin' well.
I didn't include this in the post, but there was also an incident where she posted a news article (I think from USA Today?) and explained that Chinese drones had attacked Washington. I read the article then told her that this was very misleading since the drones were recreational and made by a Chinese-based company, yes, but DJI, one of the most popular drones companies. Her response was, verbatim, "does that make you feel better?", meaning "does that make you feel safer about this incident"? Which yes, because these two facts in the article she cited completely vulgarize the summary. She also told me that I should join AP Gov since they practice going to war with China (not kidding).
