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Yeah, like religion shouldn't be banned outside of overtly cultish practices and we shouldn't just be jerks to religious communists, but the idea especially among some self-proclaimed Marxists that a frankly magical cosmology isn't in any way at odds with dialectical materialism is itself as flimsy and fanciful as young earth creationism.
Obligatory: New atheists are moronic scum who represent nothing in the modern day except vicious reaction. Unlike religious practitioners, new atheists deserve no respect for their beliefs and in fact should be attacked for these beliefs like the miserable proto-fascists they are.
A lot of communists are religious in the third world and I'm not talking about indigenous groups.
And we've seen religious chauvinism lead them astray from right policy and attitudes, e.g. gay rights in early Cuba. I'm not saying Gulag catholics, merely that we shouldn't play pretend that religion doesn't corrupt a materialist analysis.
read "Read Revolutionising Spirituality" by Brentlinger and "The Sufi and the Sickle" by Raza, good examinations of how spirituality actually DOES work with Marxism. Read Paa-Kwesi Heto and Mino's "(Dis)continuity of African Indigenous Knowledge" and Mays' An Afro-Indigenous History of the United States for examinations of indigenous knowledge in relation to diasporic groups (particularly African). Also read Aikenhead & Michell's Bridging Cultures, looks at the ways european science and indigenous science are SIMILAR and DIFFERENT and both USEFUL. Read Scott's Seeing Like a State to understand the theoretical failures of universalism, and then read Silltoe et al.'s Local Science vs. Global Science for even more concrete examinations of how universalism fails. Then read Kapoor's edited books, Against Colonization and Rural Dispossession and Research, Political Engagement and Dispossession for even more concrete (contemporary!) examples of its failures and how """"""""primitive""""""""" """""""""superstitious"""""""""" people are fighting back using their indigenous knowledges of plants, the land, soils, seeds, etc. Then you can come back and have hot takes. If you don't care enough to read about the complex and difficult topic that you don't need to understand for praxis, don't speak about it! :mao-aggro-shining:
It's always very very awkward when there's a conversation about decolonization and one person goes off like, "yes, you see our ancestors sprung from the soil here 10,000 years ago, and the west is trying to say we MIGRATED 5000 years ago???? This is their scientists' grand distortion to make it acceptable to steal our land" as if some fucking conquistador would be like "seriously, 10,000 years? Oh shit, we'll move onto the next colony sorry to bother you"
I'm wondering if there really was some bizarre 1890's psuedo-intellectual/psuedo-scientific movement among like, British fancylads or something, to excuse a lot of recent colonizations... "Oh if they were there 100,000 years ago this colony business would be bad, but 30,000 years? They're practically squatters pip pip cheerio" and that idea kind of filtered down through the years - I've heard this complaint from like 3 or 4 different indigenous groups across the world, so maybe.
I don't really know how to handle this and I don't think anyone else does because they just wait around for it to be over. I never want to shit on people obviously, so silence is fine and probably ultimately the best response...
But it's like... everyone in that conversation knows that everyone outside the indigenous group (and probably most of the people inside it) don't believe any of that. And there's always, always an awkward silence. It's not like some mayo can be like "Yeah! I evolved from apes but like these folks came from the sky, it's true everyone"
I’m wondering if there really was some bizarre 1890’s psuedo-intellectual/psuedo-scientific movement among like, British fancylads or something, to excuse a lot of recent colonizations… “Oh if they were there 100,000 years ago this colony business would be bad, but 30,000 years? They’re practically squatters pip pip cheerio”
no that wouldn't have made any difference to their thinking either way if anything them being there longer would be a sign they might have built up some real wealth there that would entice conquest and theft even more. The colonial powers only respected the ability to defend territory with force as a compelling factor. Which brought them to the table with Shaka Zulu as an equal despite his country being birthed in his own lifetime
In the works of Rudyard Kipling for example the notion of a treasure placed there by Alexander the Great in his own conquest of India is an enticing factor for conquest. China was acknowledged as a civilisation far older than Europe but once the European powers smelled blood in the water that was no deterent to colonial exploitation
I'm not really talking about the conquerors, more like some people sitting around later, affected by humanist ideas possibly trying to make excuses for their enjoyment of tea or something. Idk
Who makes those claims? Ward Churchill? I don't hear anything like that from the indigenous groups I live with or any other I've come across. Funnily enough, it's usually the "educated" ones that largely abandoned their cultures making that claim. I've found that the oral histories are usually much more detailed and that stuff like "growing out of the ground" are used as interpretive symbolism more than anything.
But you did say across the world so it could be a group or individual that takes their oral history more literally than what I've come across.
when we can keep track of 40 kinds of seeds for 10 different kinds of crops, each of which grows better in different conditions allowing for planting in response to weather conditions (and keeping track of which of the near identical seeds is better for what) based solely on your perception (how?) of it's subatomic structure and comprehension of the chemical interactions between them, each other (polycropping) the soil, the weather, insects, etc, without resorting to any sort of metaphor or shorthand, then we can talk about science.
oh wait, we coulnd't do that. we introduced monocultures instead and annihilated the soil, forests, etc. oops, it worked well in theory/the lab tho 🤪 . we are very scientific, much materialism. materialism is when you observe something in labratory conditions for 12 months and then conclude it will work everywhere. 🤡
'scientists' in this thread need to read Kuhn!
Systems of religion and "superstition" are generally how they keep track of an remember a ton of information. Western scientists disregarded their knowledge about the soils, seeds, crops, etc, as superstition bc they talked about it in terms that the scientists didn't understand. They then disregarded the knowledge and fucked tons of shit up, list of sources if you want to investigate is in the comment i made before this one. I am saying unless you are capable of keeping track of all this information, without resorting even once to metaphor or shorthand. Kuhn is a scientist who wrote about science, is the foundation of most of modern understandings of how science works lmao
Unless I am capable of keeping track of it, then what? What is the rest of that thought
I’m pretty dismissive of what indigenous people believe.
At least they had societies which allowed belief in something greater than themselves, unlike your white liberal ass. The religious beliefs of the Aboriginal peoples in Australia were shaped by 40k+ years of understanding of their land and environment, which led them to successfully terraform the continent into a botanical paradise.
This was all quickly undone in 200 years by the enlightened soy cuck Christian Rationalist invaders and now we have droughts, soil erosion, invasive species and bushfire problems.
belief in something greater than themselves
I would argue that western culture's belief in white supremacy is "something greater than themselves".
thats a good point, ill clarify by saying "belief in a nondestructive communitarian worldview that supports a narrative of hope and affirmation greater than themselves", either way, settlers have no right to be dismissive of the beliefs of the indigenous peoples whose land they are fucking up, respectful disagreement at most
touch grass
what grass lmao half of it was turned into desert and the other half is on fire
touch tomatoes. they're pretty easy to grow and a million times better than store bought ones.
but theyre non native, and there were probably over 20 edible, easy to grow, native alternatives with varying nutritional benefits that were wiped out because the crackers killed everyone and fucked up the land.
ask a divine entity of your choice to grant you some extinct native vegetable seeds then
i cant because where i live, the crackers killed everyone who could speak to them
I regret to inform you that is the only people who could speak to a divinity were a special class not defined merely by earnest belief and dedication, and that class is gone, then that raises a number of questions about that divinity.
:took-restraint: Thanks for not saying "beardy guy living up in the clouds"
I know that took a lot of restraint.
Wednesday, December 21, 1988
We had lots of Snow earlier in last week but it has rained and now it looks like a green Christmas. I remember when I was a small girl and the Nish Nobs would go hunting for food. Some times when it was a mild spell and the porcupine would be out they would kill it for the quills. And also the meat is real good, but they had to fetch it from a long ways. And it being so sharp. And nearby they would drag it, they would cut a branch from the tree that had sort of a hook. They would pull it through its mouth and drag it home. Then the Old Ones would get mad and scold them. They believed when you done it that way you were bringing on a big snow storm. I’m afraid if I tell this to the White people they will make me drag a porcupine up and down the ski slopes to prove Our beliefs
From the diary of Elder Gladys Taylor in Monture-Angus "First Voices"
Amazing, settlers haven't changed in 40 years
Indigenous people have been hearing how their beliefs ain't shit by settlers for the past 500+ years, but I'm sure they'll be receptive this time around.
Great, new CHUD gotcha just dropped.
:frothingfash:: "Jeebus sez I get to kil u and taek ur stuff!"
:stalin-pipe:: "You're a fucking idiot, and your evil god isn't real."
:frothingfash:: "Whoa there! Someone really hates the indigenous! Fedora! I said fedora so I automatically win!"
both of the people in this argument are of the cultural tribe that is killing and taking the stuff
Whenever this gets brought up people fixate on a cultural movement of fedora clad proto-fascists that lasted less than a decade, or faiths with a few million adherents at most, while ignoring that the three largest religious groups encompass like 4 billion or more people and all tell you that you're a bad person if you fuck the wrong way.
Return to tradition. Embrace "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." thought.
That's well and good, but "cultural Christianity" and "secular Calvinism" wearing the pretenses of atheism while doing both ideological and material damage to our world, right now, should not be spared if you're going to go there.
Don't worry on that account. I consider Calvin personally responsible for America. When I come in to my throne exterminating Calvinist ideology is a day one priority.
Native American traditions and religious practices inform a lot of national policy and are the driving force behind colonial mindset and patriarchal structures that oppress the vast majority of humanity, so definitely deserve the same attention as poor innocent Christianity
The irony of this is that the Neo-Atheists aren't even materialists, they're just dogmatic Calvinists that reject the trinity in favor of the self. Just rebranded Naziism, but with the occult stuff replaced with bazinga "science"
Honestly for America idk what native american religious practice that informs American policy.
I think that part was sarcastic, they're saying it isn't impactful/damaging like Christianity has been
what? googled jedediah and it literally just some american settler/colonist. Is there are any source>
New atheism really lost the plot when gamergate (and antifeminism in general) .
Also for some reason everyone hates the atheist part of reddit atheist and not the reddit part. Reddit atheist will literally side with religious fundamentalist against China (and RUSSIA now considering how much slava ukraina reddit is)
You can retain your culture without thinking it's the divine truth. You can do both. Maybe do some syncretic shit. Even my extremely catholic grandma doesn't believe the earth is 7000 years old.
I mean shit she is so old she still says "holy ghost" sometimes.
I'm pretty sure the catholic church doesn't teach that the earth is 7000 years old (at least not these days), I think that's mostly a weird American thing. When it comes to accepting science it's a lot better than a good chunk of American churches. That's not to defend the catholic church obviously, the only reason I'm not listing why they are awful is because it would come with too many trigger warnings.
Yeah no respect to the Catholic Church but they have been very consistent for over a thousand years that the Bible isn’t literal
Ah yes, the monolith of indigenous people, not a single one of them have ever become atheist, no sir
Yeah and its not like any of them say that their stories are just stories that they used to explain things that they don't know.
Osennontion: I want to emphasize that we believe our Creation Story—that we don’t need any other explanations nor does there need to be any great analysis or any great scientific substantiation for it, because we believe it! You are right when you say that we know it to be the truth, and so if someone believes otherwise, then let that one prove to us that it is not the truth.
From Osennontion and Skonaganleh:ra's "Our World" in Monture-Angus's "First Voices; An Aboriginal Women's Reader." Both are Kanien‘kehá:ka women. Monture-Angus is also Kanien‘kehá:ka iirc but i could be misremembering
Many of them AREN'T atheist though and policies of pushing ATHEISM as a proselystising religion led to residential schools in the USSR so i don't think it's a great idea!
religious should be critiqued because its false
No. That's debatebro bullshit. Religion can be critiqued both within the religion itself and from outside it, but it should be explained materially and critiqued as it aids or resists imperialism, capitalism, and particularly hegemony. Debating if Luke's gospel was written in 60CE or 110CE accomplishes nothing for the Left
Yeah cool but indegenous belief systems arent a cultural powerhouse like the abrahamic faiths, and organuzed indegenous religions will by nature not spread due to them being closed faiths. Fucking tumblr wackos and tiktok witches unironically pose a bigger threat than some old infegenous folks doing their thing
Messed up how popular astrology esp when people literally believe what month you believe in determines your personality.
Religion should be debated for the simple reason that it's false
This seems like a less important discussion of religion and leftism. Like, a better starting place (imho) is a discussion of how organised religion has been used to maintain capitalist beliefs and in cases like the Catholic church actively subverted communist efforts.
Religion should be debated for the simple reason that it’s false
This is pure idealism, which is funny because you would think a group of people who profess disbelief in deities and other metaphysical manifestations (the soul, heaven, hell) would be materialists. At a basic level, it assumes religious people act the way they do because of faulty beliefs when it's actually the reverse: religious people join the religious group and through continual social interactions, slowly begin adopting religious beliefs, including faulty beliefs they would've thought was complete bullshit when they were nonreligious.
making this into your whole identity is absurd. go eat ass or something. be known as the ass eater
What I like about this post is almost agreeing with both posters but also thinking both are ultimately wrong and stupid.
