Russian President Vladimir Putin promised Friday to 'immediately' order a ceasefire in Ukraine and begin negotiations if Kyiv started withdrawing troops from the four regions annexed by Moscow in 2022 and renounced plans to join NATO.
Because advocating for it to continue is sending others to their death. Same energy as wanting president's children on the front line, because without that understanding, people are way more willing to advocate continuing slaughter
Liberals try not to be homophobic/transphobic for two fucking seconds challenge.
You are just like the Zionists that say the same about people standing with the people of Gaza.
I would say more but it would go against this instance civility rules, you'll just have to get creative with your imagination to know how we feel about the likes of you.
whatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite. they've been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY'D LEAVE. ukraine doesn't have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can't pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it's like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it's plain and dumb.
ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded
You are right in that they have nowhere to go but it's because NATO won't let them accept peace but will force them to keep fighting until that last working class Ukrainian is dead. Russia is literally offering them a way out of more bloodshed right now, literally the topic of this post. They also could have avoided all of this by simply honoring the Minsk Agreements, but it was Ukraine breaking those agreements (including by shelling their own people in the east) that led to Russia "invading" by entering a conflict that had already been initiated by Ukraine trying to ethnically cleanse the east. It's funny you start by saying that Russia is untrustworthy, but Ukraine and NATO are the ones who very explicitly and admittedly broke their agreements.
whatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite
This is silly. Do you think Russian politicians are always just having fun playing this word game or something?
they've been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY'D LEAVE.
That doesn't make any sense. Their occupation is leverage. Giving up leverage always puts you in a worse negotiating position. The original causes of the invasion are also unresolved. What you are essentially suggesting is that Russia capitulate for the third time re: Ukraine and hope for a different outcome. The reason they invaded in the first place is that nobody in leadership, rationally, thinks they should fall for that again.
The outcome you would like to see is likely impossible. So what possible outcome do you want?
ukraine doesn't have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can't pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it's like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it's plain and dumb.
I think this might just be a misunderstanding. Of course Ukraine can't un-invade itself. And I agree that Ukraine doesn't have much choice, but I think so in a different way. They don't have much choice because they are not really a sovereign county. Their terms are heavily influenced by Western powers. The original attempts at a peace deal we blown up by Westwen leaders. This is unfortunate for the people of Ukraine, as they don't deserve to die just so that Western countries can try to stick it to Russia.
I think the best outcome is to achieve a peace deal as quickly as possible.
Isn't it interesting that the official US gov line on Gaza, a sealed off prison zone currently experiencing a second Holocaust that the zionist entity has no intention of stopping, is that "Hamas could end this any time"
But the nazi coup government of Ukraine, which doesn't even have public support and which has rejected every peace offering for years and have broken multiple treaties because they just couldn't stop slaughtering their own people in the east...they are the smol beans with nowhere to go.
You have internalized a perfectly backwards propagandistic framing of the situation: It is the Kyiv regime that can end this tomorrow by simply accepting that the people of the Donbas region do not want to be ruled by them. Russia has no interest in western Ukraine, no interest in ruling a bunch of people who hate them, they want a buffer zone so they don't have a warmongering authoritarian power's nukes on their border. I mean shit, we've been bombing their nuclear detection radar stations lately. If that's not the action of a deranged empire playing with the lives of the entire world, nothing is. Can you fucking imagine what the reaction would be if they were doing that to us? We would have scoured the planet of life by now.
The Ukrainian state forces it's people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it's people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we're in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn't given me a pony, a world were parties doesn't give up leverage before a negotiation.
You guys keep talking about Russians being untrustworthy, but it was Ukraine that broke treaties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements
'Russia is not going to X' is a very weak argument, and over the last 10 years Russia crossed many of those Xs, regardless of you thinking it's not going to.
Yeah, they lost black sea fleet almost completely, burned way over 30k lives to take over ruins
of Bakhmut, about the same to destroy and 'take over's Avdiivka, got royally fucked with the assault on Vovchansk and Sumy direction, emptied their stock of towed artillery and APCs, had to borrow and from China, Iran and fucking North Korea, got sanctioned so much that rouble is now in free trade with yuan, committed genocide and ecocide, and generally lost over half a million of soldiers while aiming for week-long speed run to kill Nazi Jew zelenski. But sure this only made them stronger.
Upd: oh boi do I forget to mention that for half a year Ukraine was effectively feigning of f the entire Russian army while having close to no weapons, and delivering majority of strikes with $500/piece plastic toys
In your first paragraph, you repeat an assessment handed down to Western propaganda. Were it true, it would be very surprising to find the reality that Russia dominates the Black Sea and Ukraine and NATO (we'll ignore Turkey, who doesn't really care lol) has no presence there. It would also be surprising to discover that the overall Russian economy is better than pre-war and that they are having no manpower issues, and are, in fact, now advancing on Ukrainian positions.
This is understandable, as the false prospect of a Ukrainian win is important for the propaganda apparatus that actually cares far more about hurting Russia than securing a future for Ukrainians.
But all of this is somewhat moot because it bears little relation to the point I made. Or maybe I am missing something? Please be explicit.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself.
Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy. Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself.
Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
Russians are people like anyone else. You, of course, can therefore find them saying just about anything. There is little overlap between what you have said and what Putin had said though I don't know why I should care about that.
I think you may be falling victim to propaganda when it comes to the Black Sea. Ukraine has nothing there. Nada. Zilch. The stories that are accurate describe the targeting and destruction of Russian vessels. Logically from what I just said, these are true. But Russia maintains its dominant presence, particurly in the Azov Sea.
I am interested, or maybe anticipating entertainment, by your idea that satellite imagery confirms your claim. My experience with such ideas is with teenagers pretending to know how to analyze raster imagery and lying through their teeth about it because it suits the needs of propaganda. This is what often gets filtered into the press. Please show me your Black Sea dataset with no Russian vessels, I would love to see it. I can even analyze it for the presence of vessels if you give me the data. Preferably, tiled GeoTIFF. I suspect, realistically, that you have third-hand information from propagandists, and can give me no such information. I anticipate disappointment.
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy.
That is no such thing. Under a forced national industrial investment regime, a capitalist government raising taxes should be expected. There is a Russian neoliberal faction that threatens to throw a wrench into things but they have been forced into less stupid positions by circumstance.
Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
Important, yes. But why think it is good for Ukraine? More pressure on Russia only increases the likelihood that they adopt a typical sociopathic Western war strategy of complete destruction civilian life. That is something that has not actually happened. It's something I was wrong about in 2022. I did not think that Russia, a regional capitalist power, would use such restrained tactics. I had to rethink my understanding of Western psychology and militarism, as it is actually qualitatively different (and morw horrible) than every other instance. I had, falsely, projected cold Western logic onto others.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
All economic indicators disagree, particularly when it comes to industrial capacity.
Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.
Putins pledges are not worth the ink used to make them
Go sign up for the ukranian military if you want to see more grist for the meat grinder, coward
Removed by mod
Because advocating for it to continue is sending others to their death. Same energy as wanting president's children on the front line, because without that understanding, people are way more willing to advocate continuing slaughter
Removed by mod
Liberals try not to be homophobic/transphobic for two fucking seconds challenge.
You are just like the Zionists that say the same about people standing with the people of Gaza.
I would say more but it would go against this instance civility rules, you'll just have to get creative with your imagination to know how we feel about the likes of you.
No u. You're clearly a nazi, so you'll fit in just fine with Azov.
The options are a peace deal or a destruction of one of the parties, and Russia is not going to be destroyed by this.
What direction would you prefer for the people living in Ukraine?
whatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite. they've been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY'D LEAVE. ukraine doesn't have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can't pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it's like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it's plain and dumb.
You are right in that they have nowhere to go but it's because NATO won't let them accept peace but will force them to keep fighting until that last working class Ukrainian is dead. Russia is literally offering them a way out of more bloodshed right now, literally the topic of this post. They also could have avoided all of this by simply honoring the Minsk Agreements, but it was Ukraine breaking those agreements (including by shelling their own people in the east) that led to Russia "invading" by entering a conflict that had already been initiated by Ukraine trying to ethnically cleanse the east. It's funny you start by saying that Russia is untrustworthy, but Ukraine and NATO are the ones who very explicitly and admittedly broke their agreements.
This is silly. Do you think Russian politicians are always just having fun playing this word game or something?
That doesn't make any sense. Their occupation is leverage. Giving up leverage always puts you in a worse negotiating position. The original causes of the invasion are also unresolved. What you are essentially suggesting is that Russia capitulate for the third time re: Ukraine and hope for a different outcome. The reason they invaded in the first place is that nobody in leadership, rationally, thinks they should fall for that again.
The outcome you would like to see is likely impossible. So what possible outcome do you want?
I think this might just be a misunderstanding. Of course Ukraine can't un-invade itself. And I agree that Ukraine doesn't have much choice, but I think so in a different way. They don't have much choice because they are not really a sovereign county. Their terms are heavily influenced by Western powers. The original attempts at a peace deal we blown up by Westwen leaders. This is unfortunate for the people of Ukraine, as they don't deserve to die just so that Western countries can try to stick it to Russia.
I think the best outcome is to achieve a peace deal as quickly as possible.
Isn't it interesting that the official US gov line on Gaza, a sealed off prison zone currently experiencing a second Holocaust that the zionist entity has no intention of stopping, is that "Hamas could end this any time"
But the nazi coup government of Ukraine, which doesn't even have public support and which has rejected every peace offering for years and have broken multiple treaties because they just couldn't stop slaughtering their own people in the east...they are the smol beans with nowhere to go.
You have internalized a perfectly backwards propagandistic framing of the situation: It is the Kyiv regime that can end this tomorrow by simply accepting that the people of the Donbas region do not want to be ruled by them. Russia has no interest in western Ukraine, no interest in ruling a bunch of people who hate them, they want a buffer zone so they don't have a warmongering authoritarian power's nukes on their border
. I mean shit, we've been bombing their nuclear detection radar stations lately. If that's not the action of a deranged empire playing with the lives of the entire world, nothing is. Can you fucking imagine what the reaction would be if they were doing that to us? We would have scoured the planet of life by now.
The Ukrainian state forces it's people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it's people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we're in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn't given me a pony, a world were parties doesn't give up leverage before a negotiation.
You guys keep talking about Russians being untrustworthy, but it was Ukraine that broke treaties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements
'Russia is not going to X' is a very weak argument, and over the last 10 years Russia crossed many of those Xs, regardless of you thinking it's not going to.
But the X here is not about a Russian foreign policy decision per se, but about their overall military standing as part of their invasion of Ukraine.
Yeah, they lost black sea fleet almost completely, burned way over 30k lives to take over ruins of Bakhmut, about the same to destroy and 'take over's Avdiivka, got royally fucked with the assault on Vovchansk and Sumy direction, emptied their stock of towed artillery and APCs, had to borrow and from China, Iran and fucking North Korea, got sanctioned so much that rouble is now in free trade with yuan, committed genocide and ecocide, and generally lost over half a million of soldiers while aiming for week-long speed run to kill Nazi Jew zelenski. But sure this only made them stronger.
Upd: oh boi do I forget to mention that for half a year Ukraine was effectively feigning of f the entire Russian army while having close to no weapons, and delivering majority of strikes with $500/piece plastic toys
In your first paragraph, you repeat an assessment handed down to Western propaganda. Were it true, it would be very surprising to find the reality that Russia dominates the Black Sea and Ukraine and NATO (we'll ignore Turkey, who doesn't really care lol) has no presence there. It would also be surprising to discover that the overall Russian economy is better than pre-war and that they are having no manpower issues, and are, in fact, now advancing on Ukrainian positions.
This is understandable, as the false prospect of a Ukrainian win is important for the propaganda apparatus that actually cares far more about hurting Russia than securing a future for Ukrainians.
But all of this is somewhat moot because it bears little relation to the point I made. Or maybe I am missing something? Please be explicit.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself. Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy. Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
Russians are people like anyone else. You, of course, can therefore find them saying just about anything. There is little overlap between what you have said and what Putin had said though I don't know why I should care about that.
I think you may be falling victim to propaganda when it comes to the Black Sea. Ukraine has nothing there. Nada. Zilch. The stories that are accurate describe the targeting and destruction of Russian vessels. Logically from what I just said, these are true. But Russia maintains its dominant presence, particurly in the Azov Sea.
I am interested, or maybe anticipating entertainment, by your idea that satellite imagery confirms your claim. My experience with such ideas is with teenagers pretending to know how to analyze raster imagery and lying through their teeth about it because it suits the needs of propaganda. This is what often gets filtered into the press. Please show me your Black Sea dataset with no Russian vessels, I would love to see it. I can even analyze it for the presence of vessels if you give me the data. Preferably, tiled GeoTIFF. I suspect, realistically, that you have third-hand information from propagandists, and can give me no such information. I anticipate disappointment.
That is no such thing. Under a forced national industrial investment regime, a capitalist government raising taxes should be expected. There is a Russian neoliberal faction that threatens to throw a wrench into things but they have been forced into less stupid positions by circumstance.
Important, yes. But why think it is good for Ukraine? More pressure on Russia only increases the likelihood that they adopt a typical sociopathic Western war strategy of complete destruction civilian life. That is something that has not actually happened. It's something I was wrong about in 2022. I did not think that Russia, a regional capitalist power, would use such restrained tactics. I had to rethink my understanding of Western psychology and militarism, as it is actually qualitatively different (and morw horrible) than every other instance. I had, falsely, projected cold Western logic onto others.
All economic indicators disagree, particularly when it comes to industrial capacity.
Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.