Yeah as we all know this is nonsense. $400,000 a year puts you in the top 2% of earners in both New York City and the San Francisco Bay Area, the two highest cost of living areas in the country. If we can't accept that anybody in the top 10% of earners is definitely "wealthy" then I don't know what to say. I live in NYC and just barely make six figures and feel incredibly wealthy. Making four times that would propel me to levels of wealth and extravagance I can't even fathom.
From personal experience there are indeed quite a few people, especially in New York, who pull in $400k or even $1 million and feel like they're poor. Their houses are huge, but they're not even close to the size of the residences of those making $10 million+. They get to go to the Met Gala, but their richer friends get to actually interact with the celebs. Stuff like that. NYC in particular is like a fractal experience of wealth—no matter how wealthy you are, you're always going to feel poor unless you're pulling in billions, and even then I'm sure you feel poor compared to Bezos. This is partially why the abolition of classes benefits everybody. Even the mega-wealthy are caught in the rat race of never-ceasing capital accumulation! Of course, they all get Central Parked when the time comes, but at least their distance ancestors won't have to feel trapped the way they did.
NYC is ridiculous. I make 100k exactly here (sorry comrades, I'm good with code, I work at a start up, flame me if you have to) and I wouldnt call myself lower class, but its not like I get to own everything. Everything here is just unreal expensive, it sucks.
Engels' family owned a factory, don't beat yourself up about it. Agreed that NYC is some weird hellhole where everything is expensive, but it's also weird to me that I have friends who are like "it's so expensive to live here" on $100k+ families when neighbors down the street with three kids get by ok on $65k. I feel two ways about it, in that the expensive trope is simultaneously very real and something only specific to 20 and 30 somethings "trying to make it" in the city.
I totally get what you mean by that, and I think a part of that is if you're moving into the city you're more likely to land in an expensive neighborhood, and it makes all the difference. But it also could just be people in their 20s don't know how to live yet, idk
You'd need to make a million dollars a year (and like every year, re not just one good year, over the course of your kids education) at least to afford this in SF or NYC. 4 kids in private school is like 200k in post tax money already.
If you want an honest answer, it's that 400k a year after taxes is like 250k in SF or NYC. You can own a 1.2 million dollar place that costs like 6,000 a month or 72k a year (in SF or Manhattan that's like the median home so nothing fancy outside of the location appeal).
In these big cities 20% of kids are going to private school, and that costs 40k a year per kid. If you decide to go that route and have 2 kids, you have like 70k left for everything including savings for retirement and what not.
The point here is, that this is what middle class America is. It's just that in like Texas or Florida or something you can get this same lifestyle making half as much if not even less. And it's also that in places like SF or NYC a middle class life just isn't possible unless you make an insane amount of money. Additionally, if you are like the average age of people on this website, your parents could have that lifestyle in these places making less than half this amount in today's dollars.
I know some libs like this in the bay area. The husband has a huge spending problem and the wife picked up on it also.
The husband is upper management at a tech company and is constantly trying to keep up with the owner who has hundereds of millions.
New motorcycle every other year. New mtn bike every year. Constantly getting new gear.
We stayed at their place once and i went through the closet and it was just filled with hiking mtn biking and motorcycle gear that was used once. Some of it never used. And that gear is all expensive and he was getting the top of the line shit.
The people that say this are just playing keeping up with the Joneses that's all
Oh definitely, but "keeping up with the Joneses" is the social equivalent of the compulsion for capital accumulation. Unless you're very consciously trying to work against it, you're going to be swept up by its currents.
Someone who makes 400k a year in these areas absolutely lives very well, but you're not going to be able to transition into the ownership class from this income alone beyond like retirement savings and homeownership. Maybe you can send kids to private school but depending on how many kids you have that's a stretch (although this depends on if we're talking 400k pre or post tax).
Making 4 times that is no longer about living a life of luxury as much as you've just reached the point where you can live life as a capitalist. You can buy up rental properties, you can start all sorts of businesses you never actively touch and so on, you can become an important donor for a political party of your choosing.
Also lastly, there is a substantial disparity between the top brackets of income and the top brackets of wealth. A person who works for a 400k salary is still worse off than a person who got a gift of 5 million on their 21st birthday which is how a huge portion of available wealth is reallocated.
I would probably just retire after like 5 years if I made that kind of money. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with it.
Also how about these people not live in the middle of Manhattan or whatever and commute a bit instead of owning a ridiculously expensive condo? This article mentioned a $2 million home, like yeah maybe that's why you're feeling the pinch at $400k per year.
Problem is, at least with the NYC metro area specifically, all the easy commutable areas outside the city where you can have like a real home are also insanely expensive for real estate. $2 million condo in Manhattan or $2 million McMansion in NJ/Westchester.
Agreed on the retiring though. Save that money up, after five years even if you're saving half you've got almost a million, and then just fuck off to Croatia or something.
Yeah as we all know this is nonsense. $400,000 a year puts you in the top 2% of earners in both New York City and the San Francisco Bay Area, the two highest cost of living areas in the country. If we can't accept that anybody in the top 10% of earners is definitely "wealthy" then I don't know what to say. I live in NYC and just barely make six figures and feel incredibly wealthy. Making four times that would propel me to levels of wealth and extravagance I can't even fathom.
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From personal experience there are indeed quite a few people, especially in New York, who pull in $400k or even $1 million and feel like they're poor. Their houses are huge, but they're not even close to the size of the residences of those making $10 million+. They get to go to the Met Gala, but their richer friends get to actually interact with the celebs. Stuff like that. NYC in particular is like a fractal experience of wealth—no matter how wealthy you are, you're always going to feel poor unless you're pulling in billions, and even then I'm sure you feel poor compared to Bezos. This is partially why the abolition of classes benefits everybody. Even the mega-wealthy are caught in the rat race of never-ceasing capital accumulation! Of course, they all get Central Parked when the time comes, but at least their distance ancestors won't have to feel trapped the way they did.
NYC is ridiculous. I make 100k exactly here (sorry comrades, I'm good with code, I work at a start up, flame me if you have to) and I wouldnt call myself lower class, but its not like I get to own everything. Everything here is just unreal expensive, it sucks.
Class traitors are cool, comrade :fidel-peace:
Engels' family owned a factory, don't beat yourself up about it. Agreed that NYC is some weird hellhole where everything is expensive, but it's also weird to me that I have friends who are like "it's so expensive to live here" on $100k+ families when neighbors down the street with three kids get by ok on $65k. I feel two ways about it, in that the expensive trope is simultaneously very real and something only specific to 20 and 30 somethings "trying to make it" in the city.
I totally get what you mean by that, and I think a part of that is if you're moving into the city you're more likely to land in an expensive neighborhood, and it makes all the difference. But it also could just be people in their 20s don't know how to live yet, idk
Hey, I mean those two things are definitely related.
Fucking oversized apartment/house, in the most expensive area
Their 4 kids go to insanely expensive private schools
They think they have to buy expensive clothes and don't know what used cars are
That can be enough by itself. They are still saving money up, but they still have to think about money a lot because they are burning so much of it.
You'd need to make a million dollars a year (and like every year, re not just one good year, over the course of your kids education) at least to afford this in SF or NYC. 4 kids in private school is like 200k in post tax money already.
If you want an honest answer, it's that 400k a year after taxes is like 250k in SF or NYC. You can own a 1.2 million dollar place that costs like 6,000 a month or 72k a year (in SF or Manhattan that's like the median home so nothing fancy outside of the location appeal).
In these big cities 20% of kids are going to private school, and that costs 40k a year per kid. If you decide to go that route and have 2 kids, you have like 70k left for everything including savings for retirement and what not.
The point here is, that this is what middle class America is. It's just that in like Texas or Florida or something you can get this same lifestyle making half as much if not even less. And it's also that in places like SF or NYC a middle class life just isn't possible unless you make an insane amount of money. Additionally, if you are like the average age of people on this website, your parents could have that lifestyle in these places making less than half this amount in today's dollars.
I know some libs like this in the bay area. The husband has a huge spending problem and the wife picked up on it also.
The husband is upper management at a tech company and is constantly trying to keep up with the owner who has hundereds of millions. New motorcycle every other year. New mtn bike every year. Constantly getting new gear.
We stayed at their place once and i went through the closet and it was just filled with hiking mtn biking and motorcycle gear that was used once. Some of it never used. And that gear is all expensive and he was getting the top of the line shit.
The people that say this are just playing keeping up with the Joneses that's all
Oh definitely, but "keeping up with the Joneses" is the social equivalent of the compulsion for capital accumulation. Unless you're very consciously trying to work against it, you're going to be swept up by its currents.
Someone who makes 400k a year in these areas absolutely lives very well, but you're not going to be able to transition into the ownership class from this income alone beyond like retirement savings and homeownership. Maybe you can send kids to private school but depending on how many kids you have that's a stretch (although this depends on if we're talking 400k pre or post tax).
Making 4 times that is no longer about living a life of luxury as much as you've just reached the point where you can live life as a capitalist. You can buy up rental properties, you can start all sorts of businesses you never actively touch and so on, you can become an important donor for a political party of your choosing.
Also lastly, there is a substantial disparity between the top brackets of income and the top brackets of wealth. A person who works for a 400k salary is still worse off than a person who got a gift of 5 million on their 21st birthday which is how a huge portion of available wealth is reallocated.
I would probably just retire after like 5 years if I made that kind of money. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with it.
Also how about these people not live in the middle of Manhattan or whatever and commute a bit instead of owning a ridiculously expensive condo? This article mentioned a $2 million home, like yeah maybe that's why you're feeling the pinch at $400k per year.
Problem is, at least with the NYC metro area specifically, all the easy commutable areas outside the city where you can have like a real home are also insanely expensive for real estate. $2 million condo in Manhattan or $2 million McMansion in NJ/Westchester.
Agreed on the retiring though. Save that money up, after five years even if you're saving half you've got almost a million, and then just fuck off to Croatia or something.
yeah, the whole area is just unreal expensive.