In this context, the political divide isn't just about disagreements over policy or ideology—it's about fundamental differences in how we value and protect the rights and dignity of all individuals, regardless of their identity or background. The challenge is not just to bridge the divide through understanding and communication but to confront and dismantle harmful beliefs and practices that have real-world consequences for marginalized groups. This isn't just a matter of disagreement; it's a matter of justice and human rights.
As our society progresses in understanding various issues such as climate change, mental health, social science, and LGBTQ+ rights, we must adapt and evolve our perspectives based on new information and evidence. This growth is not an attack on tradition but rather a recognition that what may have once been accepted as normal can actually be harmful to certain individuals or groups.
It is crucial for everyone, regardless of political affiliation, to acknowledge the importance of recognizing and addressing harm caused by outdated beliefs or practices. Instead of viewing these changes as a threat to tradition, we should embrace the opportunity to create a more inclusive and just society. This requires a proactive approach in advocating for the rights of all individuals and continuously reevaluating our own beliefs and actions in light of new evidence and understanding.
The political divide extends beyond policy and ideology, reflecting differing values in upholding the rights and dignity of all individuals. The task at hand involves not only fostering understanding but also actively addressing harmful beliefs and practices harming marginalized groups. This issue transcends disagreement; it's a matter of justice and human rights.
Progressives recognize that evolving understanding is crucial, as new facts emerge that challenge past beliefs. Vegans exemplify this, acknowledging the sentience of animals and their capacity for emotions. Despite industries and individuals choosing to exploit them, knowledge and awareness must drive change for a more compassionate society.
What can I say that hasn't already been said? 
As a vegan…the fuck is Kamala Harris gonna do for animal liberation??? Huh? What?
This honestly makes even less sense than voting for her for Palestine cuz at least that’s a discussion - we are so far removed from considering animal liberation as anything more than theoretical (and veganism as anything more than consumer activism).
Furthermore, the notion that "human rights aren't political" is fundamentally flawed. Human rights are political, yes, but they shouldn't be. Either way you look at it, Kamala is not the person to turn to as a bastion of being pro-human rights to the point where she's the "we need to set aside our differences and unite for the betterment of all humans (and non-human animals in this case apparently...)" kind of archetype that this bozo thinks she is.
Nothing. Animal rights aren’t a thing that’s ever been on her agenda. I don’t expect them to be for either of the two capitalist American parties, but it’s dishonest to bring it up as something that’s materially going to be different between her and Trump. Under either candidate, animals aren’t going to have rights.
Lots of vegans are libs. And as it turns out lots of you socialist ain’t even vegan. What’s up with that?
Oof!
This may turn into a vegan struggle sesh.
I mentioned their veganism as a way to give context to them bringing up animal rights. As vegans who are non-libs and non-libs who are not vegan, let's just poke fun at this massive vegan
.I'm like the one vegan tankie I know IRL. Every single other vegan I know is a liberal or anarchist.
Uphold Marxism-Leninism-Veganism!
I was talking to @BeamBrain@hexbear.net recently about how I feel so distant from many radical leftist vegans due to my tankieness, and he totally gets it, as we're both former anarchists.
o7. One day our animal comrades will be free, and no longer bred as commodities.
Same here. A lot of the MLs I know say they should be vegan "buuuuut.." <insert liberal reason why not veganism hard here>
I actually know a vegan tankie irl who is not me!
Sadly, they don't wanna hang out, probably because I'm awkward and weird. But I know one nonetheless!
I'd be vegan for ideological reasons but I think with my dietary restrictions and issues it'd kill me.
LITERALLY neither candidates could give less of a fuck about animal's rights. Just look at how much they don't care about climate change which is currently wiping out animal populations as we speak.
That eggs are a dealbreaker for some folks, but not putting people into camps.
Neither of these things even mean anything to the cop or organe man.
Genuinely speaking this election, like the last election, is a
'anyone but Trump''vote blue no matter who' election.Honestly if I was a member of the DNC
I'd shoot myself in a bunkerI'd just keep promoting the most deranged Republican so people have to keep voting blue; there's literally no incentive for dems NOT to keep propping up hateful weirdos because it's bringing people to the polls in droves. This genocide in Gaza may well be what really makes it clear to people how awful both the DNC and the GOP really are; that and the constant disasters that see awful, inadequate responses by the government.I think what you're describing was what they tried to do in 2016, they just underestimated how unlikable Hillary Clinton is.
Maybe it's because I'm in America, but I've never met a vegan who would vote for Trump. Lots of Kamala/Biden vegans, but I seriously cannot imagine a vegan Trump voter. Who is this post even for?
I browse a lot of "politically neutral" vegan communities and comment sections of "politically neutral" vegan creators, and I have seen people express being vegans for Trump. It's not as rare as you'd think.
I seriously cannot imagine a vegan Trump voter.
There's a faction of anti-COVID folks who bought the Vegan As Panacea line from the 70s/80s and are now so old that Trumpism appeals to them. They crop up on QAnonAnonymous and other Freak Show podcasts from time to time. But they aren't his primary audience by any means.
The discussion gets brought up on /r/vegan occasionally and like 5-10% of the comments claim they are conservative. A conservative/Trumper vegan makes no sense though, I agree.
That sub also thinks you can support animal testing and still be vegan.
It's really kind of funny seeing some of the posts compared to how far I've personally come. I hate to punch down and usualy ignore the dumb shit but I had an argument with a zionist turd over Starbucks no longer upcharging for oat milk and after a few comments I was like "what the fuck is going on?" I was literally just saying not to support a company that supports the genocide, uses anti-union tactics, and uses child slave labor in their production chain and this user was calling me a hateful piece of shit because I wasn't able to be happy that Starbucks now offers vegan treats for free while literally doing nothing else. The company is absolutely unethical. Praising them for vegan treats is ridiculous. Sorry for the mini rant lol.
It's really kind of funny seeing some of the posts compared to how far I've personally come.
I had this problem with a lot of vegan social events. I participated and felt like I was part of the community for years, but things started to hit how absolutely lib and middle class the whole community was. I noticed that I was the only one masking at an event (this was late 2021), and later a lot of open bigotry got ignored despite people's call for the chuds doing it to be sanctioned.
Not that vegans need to be lib or middle class, but this group was.
We don't really have vegan social stuff here so at least you got that.
I did have a prettly nice convo with a lib couple yesterday at my favorite vegan food truck. He said some stuff that made me think radical centrist, but she's a recent convert form "Veganuary" and is trying to stick with it. She also helps at Food Not Bombs so it's a bit of a mixed bag. Would be cool to see them grow more and him come over. He even admitted that tho he wasn't a vegan he loved the food there. Maybe some wheels are turning?
Nah, I appreciated your mini rant. I have to clarify that my comment wasn't directed at you, I've just written off r/vegan as a lost cause long ago because it's plant based capitalism central, and seeing multiple threads bending over backwards explaining how vegans could eat Impossible Burgers despite them being tested on animals (nevermind all the more reasonable people saying many vegan burgers existed long before Impossible) nailed the coffin shut for me.
r/vegan is awful in a lot of ways, and that includes their uncritical support of plant-based capitalism, but the conversation about plant-based capitalism is something I've thought about a lot, and it's a bit iffy to me. Not necessarily because I see PBC as a good thing in any way, shape, or form, hell no, but because of how I think about it in relation to material conditions.
On one hand, I truthfully don't feel a need to call out other vegans when I see them do things like consume Impossible products. However, that's just if the "consumption" is all there is to it. r/vegan, on the other hand, does more than that; they, fitting terminology considered, soy out over it.
r/vegan is absolutely horrid in how much they're focused on defending plant-based capitalism and the products that come with it more than they are about focusing on actual animal rights causes. However, I wouldn't split hairs with other vegans who do consume these products while simultaneously and rightfully not seeing Impossible as some majorly ethical savior of animals.
The reason why I don't is that the line of what counts as "plant-based capitalism" gets abstract, muddy, blurry, and overall seems more symbolic rather than material once you start raising certain questions. "Impossible" is unequivocally an example of a PBC company, but I feel like, so long as we live under capitalism, the difference between a "plant-based capitalist" product and just a "plant-based" product is often merely branding rather than something actually material.
For instance, a plant-based sandwich at a KFC is, on the surface, extremely questionable because KFC is a company that wears their carnism on their sleeve. However, even though KFC is more anti-vegan in its aesthetic, materially, going to a Walmart and buying plant-based foods there is doing the same thing in the sense of giving your money to a retailer that also sells the corpses of murdered animals and their secretions.
However, the point about animal testing is very important. Animal testing, especially for "unheard of" ingredients, is often required by the FDA to actually release a product with these ingredients. Like you said, plant-based burgers have already been made before Impossible even existed, and they didn't even have to experiment to make their food taste incredibly "meatlike." Impossible went ahead and did it anyway, even in instances where they didn't have to do such testing because those times went beyond FDA regulations.
That being said, the reason why I still wouldn't care to argue with vegans who may do something like, in passing, post a picture of them eating an Impossible burger is simply because I don't hold companies to certain ethical standards in a sense, and in relation to the system, I view the nature of their animal testing as different than, say, the nature of a hygiene company that routinely tests on animals, even though it's still morally repugnant. However, I would absolutely shit on people who uphold Impossible as some grand mark of progress for the animals.
Companies, whether they're selling a PBC product or not, tend to just be inherently at least some degree of awful under capitalism and the carnistic world we live in. Most companies that sell plant-based mock products are not ethically vegan, and most plant-based things you obtain are not going to be from ethical vegans. Why? Capitalism is such a huge part of so many of our lives, but only 1% of the world, maybe even less, is vegan.
All of this in mind, I would not be comfortable eating a plant-based sandwich at a KFC, and the ethical questionability and the literal price of many plant-based capitalist products certainly has made me iffy about consuming many of them as well. I'm looking to make my own things like seitan deli slices and whatnot at home instead.
This is something I've thought about too, and I've come to the same conclusions too: the reason why I'm so annoyed at r/vegan's love of PBC is that they actually praise companies like KFC for having vegan alternatives. No, you don't gotta hand it to the animal slaughtering megacorporation.
Yeah, I guess it's bad to buy stuff from a grocery store that also sells animal products, but for most people it's also unavoidable. Buying anything from a fast food restaurant is something you can easily not do.
Yeah, it's easy to not shop at the fast food restaurant and go to the grocery store instead, but regardless, I'm not sure if I could say there is a grand material difference between the two.
Either way, I couldn't imagine being inside a place like KFC and smelling all the murdered birds comfortably enough to be like "one order of soy nuggies pls 🥺" at the front register. I worked at a chicken restaurant a few months after I went vegan simply due to desperation and my father kinda pushing me into it. Never again, even as a customer.
On one hand, I truthfully don’t feel a need to call out other vegans when I see them do things like consume Impossible products.
Sorry to zone in on this one point, but what is the problem with something like that? As a non-vegan, I'm guessing it's because it still supports a massive corporation whose main business is mass-scale animal slaughter?
This was just in reference to the fact that, primarily due to government regulations, Impossible Foods as a company tested on animals to get a particular "meat-tasting" ingredient approved. This has caused controversy among vegans; as many would say since animal testing was involved, vegans should automatically neglect Impossible Foods on principle, and others are looking at it through a lens where they don't see it as a violation of vegan principles.
Me personally? I believe the issue is more nuanced overall because, in my honest opinion, I've seen many on the former side overlook the fact that a significant portion of this issue is related to systemic capitalist issues. Roughly 1% or less of the world is vegan, yet a significantly larger portion of the population participates in capitalism, and that, of course, includes vegans as consumers. Animal testing is undoubtedly not vegan, but the reason why I don't split hairs with vegans who eat Impossible products is that, if taken to its logical conclusion, you could easily classify many things that most people wouldn't as "non-vegan" simply due to the nature of the companies that produce these things and/or government regulations that went into getting them onto the market.
The nature of Impossible products' testing is also categorically different than that of, say, a hygiene company that routinely tests on animals. It's not as likely that consuming Impossible products would cause a demand for more animal exploitation; in fact, you could argue that it would have a similar likelihood of doing so as buying plant-based food from any other non-vegan company would because that's just the nature of corporations—they may pull some unethical shit down the line. There are so many corporations and capitalist entities, but there are so few genuinely principled ethical vegans.
I myself have found merit in avoiding Impossible products primarily due to cost and added wariness about ethical pitfalls that came out of this conversation, but due to the fact that this matter is more rooted in a systemic problem and therefore is ultimately more gray in the way the consumer goes about it, I find that it's honestly the last thing that vegans should gatekeep over. With all of these systemic matters in mind, I don't see saying "Impossible burgers are not suitable for vegans." as unequivocal as saying, "Meat, dairy, and eggs are not suitable for vegans." Plant-based capitalism is bad because capitalism is bad, but a lot of the criticisms of plant-based capitalism I find are rooted in the abstract and symbolism rather than anything material (see what I said about plant-based KFC sandwiches).
Based on such a materialist analysis, I don't see a reason to have an issue with vegans who consume this, but I totally agree that companies that manufacture plant-based alternatives should not get some special praise or be seen as an incredible hallmark of veganism or anything like that. Food is food. In a sense, I don't like to see food as a part of my veganism. When I'm enjoying food, I'm enjoying food, and that food will just so happen to be plant-based because abstaining from animal-based foods was a logical derivative of me having a vegan mindset. However, vegan activism and discussions on veganism as a philosophy do not necessarily have to do with food itself but rather animal liberation instead.
Thank you for the very thorough and well thought out reply to my silly question. I don't have much to comment on I'm afraid, apart from adding a "I agree" or "yeah, that makes sense, I understand where you're coming from."
I didn't know Impossible Foods tested on animals before seeing your previous comment, so I was curious about the whole thing, and you've really helped inform me about this. :)
Nah you're good I mostly use that sub to dunk on shit takes from carnists.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention my favorite type of post: "I want to join the US military, can I be vegan there?" fucking lmao.
That post from a few weeks ago? Had me fucking rolling. She seems absolutely disconnected from reality.
Oh, I don't actively follow that place, seems like that kind of post is more common than I thought
Ah yeah, ironically the "vegan" made a post about how to eat vegan while being in the military killing Palestinian children. Quite a few called her out on it and it even got a nice post in /r/vegancirclejerk. She got downvoted to shit because she was saying how "a girl's gotta go to college" and other braindead bullshit.
how vegans could eat Impossible Burgers despite them being tested on animals
Wait, what? How do you test a burger on an animal and why?
Read Angel's comment below, it's a good explanation of the situation.
I know a few vegan hard reactionaries. What frustrates me with non leftists is that they chose a One Good Thing Ⓡ to do, make it their entire identity, and decide to never grow ever again.
Look at what their saying they are going to do about the genocide and look at what they are actually doing!
Look, just look and see your fate as well.
Why do you believe a party currently committing genocide? What do you think makes you so fucking special that they would spare you when your time comes and you stand in they way of profit?
Why do you believe a party currently committing genocide?
Because, 23 years after 9/11, they have fully internalized the War Of Civilizations and are absolutely on board with a Holocaust of Arabs, Persians, and any other excessively brown person.
This is the Just War America was asking for back when we invaded Iraq. Israel is just an extension of the American Id. So is Ukraine, as they get to re-fight the Eastern Front and Americans relitigate who the good guys really were during WW2.
"Human and animal rights should not be considered a political debate between the left or the right"
Must be nice for that poster. Children have so few responsibilities, and they can just post whatever confidently because they don't know how wrong they are.
In this context, the political divide isn't just about disagreements over policy or ideology—it's about fundamental differences in how we value and protect the rights and dignity of all individuals
I am endlessly mad about liberals saying things aren't ideology that are the most textbook definition of ideology.
The number of vegans that rate Palestinians lower than chickens is distressingly high >.>
What part of this post said or even implied in any way that they can't? I brought up their veganism pertaining to the fact that it gives context as to why they brought up animal rights.
Are you saying something this obvious in good faith or is this another one of those carnist concern trolling efforts?
The fact that you responded with a reiteration of the statement itself while glossing over the reason why I criticized your statement is 100% indicative of bad-faith concern trolling.
In the very first sentence of my response, I literally said, "What part of this post said or even implied in any way that they can't?" which is an unambiguous indicator that I agree that vegans absolutely can have garbage opinions on politics. Not only that, but I myself have literally made posts about vegans with shitty takes on politics on c/vegan on multiple occasions.
Also, I'd hope that you, as a leftist, would be able to interpret the difference between a statement at face value and the underlying implications of said statement. People on Hexbear post about concern trolling all the time, where people will utilize what is called a motte-and-bailey fallacy to make their statements seem a lot more innocuous. You are doing the same thing but for veganism.
In this case, "Vegans can have bad takes on things" is the motte, a "no-shit," generic common sense statement that anyone can agree with. However, the problem comes in because of the subtle strawman that anyone here is arguing that vegans cannot have bad takes on things. That is the bailey, and it's why your comment comes off as anti-vegan concern trolling.
Saying things like "Antisemitism is bad" as a motte and "Zionism is good" as a bailey is a super common example that, of course, anti-Zionists have argued against. It's the conflation of a generic, easy-to-defend statement with a statement that is a lot more divisive and controversial that creates the problem.
Your comment is superfluous and lacking in depth, so that's why I interpret it as concern trolling, not because I disagree with the statement itself.
