I think this is the really interesting paragraph:
An overwhelming majority, 78 percent of all Americans, believe that the divide between the rich and the poor is a serious issue. Of the 68 percent of all Americans who believe that the rich are not paying their fair share in taxes, 49 percent believe that “a complete change of our economic system” is in order.
Obviously for most of these people "a complete change of our economic system" is probably more along the lines of "lots more tax on the rich" rather than socialist revolution, but it indicates that a message about class inequality is one that a huge percentage of people are willing to hear, even more so if you avoid openly using the s-word off the bat
This is the thing that I think the comrades who say "they don't really want socialism they want social democracy!" are missing. Yes, technically correct, the people surveyed probably don't have a correct definition of socialism that they're working with. But in the US, the first and biggest obstacle we face in getting to real socialism is getting over this weird boogeyman of "eeeeevil socialism" that we learned from decades of cold war propaganda. Just being open to something called "socialism" is progress. And tbh have huge numbers of people open to social democracy isn't the worst thing in the world, I think.
I mean, the biggest obstacle would probably be some alphabet agency, per usual
All you people saying they are just people who think this means the government does more stuff or are succdems need to not dismiss them and educate them. Maybe we will get more comrades.
who woulda thought when you’re not a condescending dick head you convert more people. who woulda thought (yes i see the irony thats part of the joke tbh)
it makes me so sad when people are rude or mean to liberals who absolutely could be radicalized. do people really think they are being helpful? I understand the blue dog libs or psycho conservatives but alot of libs who offer misguided but still in the correct spirit ideas get demolished
TLDR :
bullying only works on chuds or extreme neoliberals and it only works to clear the room and so they will shut up.
Liberalism is basically the standard ideology of most Americans. However a lot really don't truly believe in it and can be converted. You might just have to improvise with what you say.
Cultural hegemony does terrible things. A lot of americans view capitalism as the default of society and are indoctrinated from birth in school.
Sorry to necropost, but I was searching Chapo and you seemed like a good person to ask: how does one learn to radicalize libs? I know one thing I need to do is read some more theory so I can better argue my points, but part of my problem is that I end up getting way too heated when I talk about this stuff. Which, I guess it should, but ranting and raving is not a very effective rhetorical strategy.
My reach is severely limited right now due to the current circumstances, but as a start, if you have any advice on getting through to PMC types I'd greatly appreciate it.
tbh what works for me is dropping things they agree with gradually because they understand we have shared values at least on some level (most sane people do) then you point out slowly and gradually each time you see liberals fuck it up.
Dont whip out theory where it’s unnatural. explain for example labor theory of value in some way thats normal for you and coworkers not clothes of linenen or whatever. Thats how I deal with PMCs and sure they wont be full blown radicals but chances are you can shift them a bit to notice when liberals fuck up and how your shared values aren’t being enacted.
thats what I do but im not organizer 😅😅😅😅
TLDR dont be weird become a person they would trust and befriend tbh :)
while support for socialism among all Americans increased from 36 percent in 2019 to 40 percent in 2020.
Bruh WHAT
I mean I know most of these people don't know much about it, but that's fucking HUGE. Even just having 40% of people not recoiling at the word is incredible. How did it get that high?
It's been rising steadily since 2008 recession, if not earlier. It's a combination of things being shitty for so long, and Republicans insisting on calling any remotely good reform "socialist"
I have a personal theory that the fashies fucking over the overton window actually goes both ways, as it allows previously "taboo" leftists ideas to be discussed openly in the same way reactionary ideas becomes more widespread. What that means is that talking about abolishing property doesn't sounds that "crazy" to the average folk anymore as they've also heard "similar" inflammatory lines from the right.
I will say that part of my trip leftward was caused by the republicans calling Romney's healthcare reform "socialism" for ten years after le black democrat stole it. Temporarily rendering it meaningless made it less scary and more interesting.
my radicalization had far more to do with democrats not fulfilling what i thought were shared values rather than anything the opposition did.
Gen Z may support socialism with lower frequency than Millennials, but that'll change when they start selling their labor power IMO
reminder these people think socialismis free healthcare and a somewhat providing state infrastructure
If only there were socialists who knew better to clear things up for them. Alas, all I see is libs.
As long as we can get them on board later and understand Biden sucks and should be opposed, they should be fine. Who knows, they might regret their vote.
Pretty sure the US youth don't vote for anyone. That's why bernie lost.
edit: activating non-voters didn't work. stay mad.
The settle for biden movement is semi-popular on TikTok, however. Hopefully the people who support it at the moment radicalize fully soon.
chomping at the bit to go back to lunch
Ah yes, lunch in an isolation tent.
But I'm with you. Part of the reason why activating the youth/nonvoters didn't work for Bernie was because the liberal boomers got activated even harder by their hate for trump. If the dems mentally check out and a figure or an org can rise out of the 2020 electoral mania to unite the burgeoning American Left (or at least socdems+) then the political landscape could be seriously changed by millions of people realizing that the dems don't and won't ever represent their interests.
This is a unnecessarily defeatist take on what is good news. Like a majority of young people in the US are looking for alternatives to the capitalist status quo.
There is no major, organized force advancing the working class revolutionary alternative, so why would that even register as an option for most people? If you’re a revolutionary socialist, your job is to work with the consciousness of the working class as it exists and raise a revolutionary perspective grounded in conditions as they actually exist.
Why would you frame the question as whether people are willing to give up their safety and comfort? Putting the working class in power is the basis for improving conditions for working class people.
Okay but 1% is 3 million.
That’s already an army and if you avoid violence you can keep these socdems on board.
Then when capital uses violence and they die too there is excuse but to finally blame capital.
Yer optimistic. The second violence becomes neccessary they would backstab. Succdems are libs, they wont realise their mistake until the fashs come for them aswell. At that point there would be no leftist left for them to ally to.
They're talking about a vague conception of social democracy, does anyone here seriously believe 10 percent of US youth have suddenly become Marxists or anarchists?
No but expecting them to instantly go from “kid living through years of propaganda in the imperial core, after decades of a decrepit left” to Marxists instantly is dumb as hell.
Yes it is, which is why it's a good thing I never held that expectation
That's not the point I think. This kinda marks a shift towards the left, and left movements. Which is absolutely necessary for any radical change. We just need to make sure they'll move further.
It marks a shift towards a deadend that neoliberalism was literally designed to destroy, and quite successfully, social democracy is not on the same spectrum as socialism, stuff like this is why I believe the left and right dichotomy only results in two-dimensional thinking, where every political ideology imaginable is somehow graphed on a single line, it leads to this bizarre assumption that soc-dems somehow inevitably digivolve into full-blown socialists, makes no sense
All current trends point to the conclusion that they WILL in fact keep hammering at it for a long, long, long time, for your argument to make sense there would have to be some sort of cross generational memory that could inform these new soc-dems of the limitations and deadends of their ideology, leading them on to more socialist alternatives, well that memory doesn't exist, many of them think they've discovered a whole new philosophy that corrects all the previous errors of the old systems, and that's why it's a plateau not a path
Why you getting all butthurt hours later, yes motherfucka ALL CURRENT TRENDs as in every election in the last 40 years, do I really have to cite something that should be obvious?
Yes, it's occasionally useful to gauge politics by the actual dominate political form
I have never said they will inevitably become socialists. I've said that making sure they do is on us. We have a harder time convincing someone of socialism who immediately stops any rational thought when they hear the word "socialism" than someone who is already partly on board with socialist policies.
Historically soc-dems have been some of the most virulent and effective anti-commusntists, your argument sound good in a vacuum but there's never been any evidence of it happening on a large scale
You know which movements are an even bigger thread to communists? Open anti-communists like fascists.
Hitler did set back the communist movement in Germany quite a bit by literally killing them. Sure, soc-dems have broader appeal by being less radical, and most people being too afraid of true radical change. But I'll still have an easier time of pulling a soc-dem over, than I'll pull a fascist or neoliberal over.
Fuck, even Lenin did side with soc-dems, when it was to oppose more right movements...
Those movements are dead, were dealing with neoliberalism now, don't compare apples and oranges
