I would support violence in the revolution that's inevitable and necessary for the revolution to succeed (in minecraft). But hell no I do not support literal murder as a part of a justice system, I'd hope most of us aren't that bloodthirsty and retributive
Lock Elon and every other ghoul up, their torture can be spending the rest of their days seeing the world change
I still think the greatest revenge is turning them in to good communists, as that would require utterly destroying the person they were and reforming them as something else.
Yeah you can hate oppressors while still not seeing any human being as inherently evil. I think we're all products of our material conditions, upbringing, education, mental health conditions, etc. People don't just, naturally harm and exploit others because that's who they fundamentally are. I mean, I guess some people probably have imbalances in their brain that effectively make them psychopaths, but I'm also hoping that's eventually better understood and cured under communism
I think there's always going to be assholes, but I think we can build a society where it's real hard for assholes to hurt anyone. I think alot about how women had it better in the GDR because they weren't financially dependent on men for anything and if their partner was a shit they could just leave without being financially ruined. Like that's a change in material circumstances that makes it so abusers have a harder time abusers and victims have an easier time getting out. It's real concrete. i think about it a lot.
Some will need to die during a revolution, but I'm not supporting revolution for vengeance, I want change. It's not that it makes me squeamish, or that I'm not angry enough, it's that killing only for retribution is wrong in my opinion.
99% of cases I'm against the death penalty. But in the clear cut cases where it's obvious someone is an irredeemable Nazi, line them up.
Like Anders Breivik. The relatively comfy imprisonment he's been given is great for most people, but he should have been taken out back, shot, and dropped in a ditch.
There's a fair amount of us that are against punitive/retributive justice as a rule actually. Whenever I post about it I get a fair number of upbears so I assume I'm not alone.
just get prison
Wait till you find out most of us are prison abolitionists as well lol.
As long as we keep people like musk under tight surveillance so they don't get up to any counter-revolutionary shit they wouldn't be dangerous after we take their stuff. We might have to spread them out over long distances and confine them to rural areas to make it hard to do conspiracies, but there are ways to keep them in check while allowing them a degree of freedom and dignity (which, let me be clear, they do not deserve. It's not for them, it's for us)
Restorative justice is good, but it's not without flaws. One of the big flaws is what happens if the person who committed the crime does not want to engage in restorative justice.
What if they maintain their innocence, and are actually innocent? Sounds like you need a trial, but what do you do if they don't want to bother with one?
What if they maintain their innocence even though they are found guilty, and actually are?
What if they admit to doing it but say they'd do it again?
What I'm getting at is that you need a backstop to make people engage with your justice system if they don't want to voluntarily.
One other significant issue with restorative justice is that society might want a different outcome than what the victim of a crime might be satisfied with. Think of a case where a person is threatened with a gun. The victim is satisfied with moving on after an apology, but what if the community doesn't want the first guy to have a gun anymore?
He will be a waste reprocessing worker third class in the Provisional Martian Worker's Republic. He will be paid a comfortable living wage and proper benefits. He will sleep in the pod, he will eat the algae, and he will be happy.
I mean prison abolition doesnt mean we dont still have places where we put the most extreme cases of people who cant be rehabilitated and are a danger to society if allowed to exist in it. They just wouldnt function like prisons as we know them.
Then again the USSR did do Gulags so I'm not going to weep over Elon if he's executed or work camp'd I'm just I'm personally against retributive justice in nearly all cases and would advocate for a justice system that isnt retributive post-revolution.
If it makes you feel any better I'm sure Elon doesnt survive the process of revolution anyway :)
Yeah, the question of what to do with people who truly cannot play nice in society is one I'm still learning about re: restorative justice and prison abolition. There are a small number of people who are just irrepairably anti-social and I'm not sure how you'd deal with them. Sending them to a rural area or colony where their movements can be tightly monitored while allowing them some degree of freedom within an assigned area is the best I can come up with.
In Iain Banks The Culture, iirc, people who commit serious crimes are assigned a drone that follows them around for the rest of their lives. They're allowed to go anywhere, do whatever, but if they try to do something anti-social the drone will incapacitate them. That's as close as they have to a prison system.
I think there's a significant contradiction between prison abolition and running any sort of state, especially a post-revolutionary one where reaction is inevitable.
To paraphrase , the day after the revolution, are we suddenly going to treat the fascists with kid gloves? Will they be allowed to go back to what they are doing now and we can't even arrest them?
Once the revolution is over you switch from Louis XVI to Puyi. Truth and Reconciliation is essential to creating a Socialist society and reducing any reactionary fifth colum
Humour and (justified)hate inspired outcomes aside I think the most common hexbear view on what should be done with people like Elon is what the CPC did with emperor Puyi rather than Romanov them
I don't. It doesn't work and provably makes things worse. There is no justification for killing prisoners or criminals during peacetime. It's not even a mercy or compassion thing, it provably creates negative outcomes for the community.
I think there could be if there was evidence that they would be a danger to society even if locked up (genocide supporter with a huge following, gang stuff maybe, Warren Jeffs types etc)
Justice systems shouldn't be about revenge, it should be about reformation. That's contingent on the stability of a revolution, ofc. Some reactionary hardline militants might simply be too much of a risk to keep around before a governing body could really find its feet.
See also:
36% of Americans support US airstrikes that explicitly kill civilians
51% of Americans support ICE raids against illegal immigrants
52% of Americans support US strikes in Mexico to fight the cartel
53% of Americans support stand your ground laws
55% of Americans support the death penalty
58% of Americans support drone strikes in general
65% of Americans have a favorable view of the CIA
82% of Americans oppose defunding the police
94% of Americans support the troops
Real pacifist crowds you got there
Don't we support the death penalty? Surely Elon wouldn't just get prison that would suck
I would support violence in the revolution that's inevitable and necessary for the revolution to succeed (in minecraft). But hell no I do not support literal murder as a part of a justice system, I'd hope most of us aren't that bloodthirsty and retributive
Lock Elon and every other ghoul up, their torture can be spending the rest of their days seeing the world change
I still think the greatest revenge is turning them in to good communists, as that would require utterly destroying the person they were and reforming them as something else.
Yeah you can hate oppressors while still not seeing any human being as inherently evil. I think we're all products of our material conditions, upbringing, education, mental health conditions, etc. People don't just, naturally harm and exploit others because that's who they fundamentally are. I mean, I guess some people probably have imbalances in their brain that effectively make them psychopaths, but I'm also hoping that's eventually better understood and cured under communism
I think there's always going to be assholes, but I think we can build a society where it's real hard for assholes to hurt anyone. I think alot about how women had it better in the GDR because they weren't financially dependent on men for anything and if their partner was a shit they could just leave without being financially ruined. Like that's a change in material circumstances that makes it so abusers have a harder time abusers and victims have an easier time getting out. It's real concrete. i think about it a lot.
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Some will need to die during a revolution, but I'm not supporting revolution for vengeance, I want change. It's not that it makes me squeamish, or that I'm not angry enough, it's that killing only for retribution is wrong in my opinion.
99% of cases I'm against the death penalty. But in the clear cut cases where it's obvious someone is an irredeemable Nazi, line them up.
Like Anders Breivik. The relatively comfy imprisonment he's been given is great for most people, but he should have been taken out back, shot, and dropped in a ditch.
There's a fair amount of us that are against punitive/retributive justice as a rule actually. Whenever I post about it I get a fair number of upbears so I assume I'm not alone.
Wait till you find out most of us are prison abolitionists as well lol.
Restorative justice is cool and good!
As long as we keep people like musk under tight surveillance so they don't get up to any counter-revolutionary shit they wouldn't be dangerous after we take their stuff. We might have to spread them out over long distances and confine them to rural areas to make it hard to do conspiracies, but there are ways to keep them in check while allowing them a degree of freedom and dignity (which, let me be clear, they do not deserve. It's not for them, it's for us)
Thanks for always being my pal on this issue Frank!
Restorative justice is good, but it's not without flaws. One of the big flaws is what happens if the person who committed the crime does not want to engage in restorative justice.
What I'm getting at is that you need a backstop to make people engage with your justice system if they don't want to voluntarily.
One other significant issue with restorative justice is that society might want a different outcome than what the victim of a crime might be satisfied with. Think of a case where a person is threatened with a gun. The victim is satisfied with moving on after an apology, but what if the community doesn't want the first guy to have a gun anymore?
Where are we putting Elon then
He will be a waste reprocessing worker third class in the Provisional Martian Worker's Republic. He will be paid a comfortable living wage and proper benefits. He will sleep in the pod, he will eat the algae, and he will be happy.
I mean prison abolition doesnt mean we dont still have places where we put the most extreme cases of people who cant be rehabilitated and are a danger to society if allowed to exist in it. They just wouldnt function like prisons as we know them.
Then again the USSR did do Gulags so
I'm not going to weep over Elon if he's executed or work camp'd I'm just I'm personally against retributive justice in nearly all cases and would advocate for a justice system that isnt retributive post-revolution.
If it makes you feel any better I'm sure Elon doesnt survive the process of revolution anyway :)
Yeah, the question of what to do with people who truly cannot play nice in society is one I'm still learning about re: restorative justice and prison abolition. There are a small number of people who are just irrepairably anti-social and I'm not sure how you'd deal with them. Sending them to a rural area or colony where their movements can be tightly monitored while allowing them some degree of freedom within an assigned area is the best I can come up with.
In Iain Banks The Culture, iirc, people who commit serious crimes are assigned a drone that follows them around for the rest of their lives. They're allowed to go anywhere, do whatever, but if they try to do something anti-social the drone will incapacitate them. That's as close as they have to a prison system.
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I think there's a significant contradiction between prison abolition and running any sort of state, especially a post-revolutionary one where reaction is inevitable.
To paraphrase
, the day after the revolution, are we suddenly going to treat the fascists with kid gloves? Will they be allowed to go back to what they are doing now and we can't even arrest them?
Once the revolution is over you switch from Louis XVI to Puyi. Truth and Reconciliation is essential to creating a Socialist society and reducing any reactionary fifth colum
Humour and (justified)hate inspired outcomes aside I think the most common hexbear view on what should be done with people like Elon is what the CPC did with emperor Puyi rather than Romanov them
I don't. It doesn't work and provably makes things worse. There is no justification for killing prisoners or criminals during peacetime. It's not even a mercy or compassion thing, it provably creates negative outcomes for the community.
I think there could be if there was evidence that they would be a danger to society even if locked up (genocide supporter with a huge following, gang stuff maybe, Warren Jeffs types etc)
Justice systems shouldn't be about revenge, it should be about reformation. That's contingent on the stability of a revolution, ofc. Some reactionary hardline militants might simply be too much of a risk to keep around before a governing body could really find its feet.