I'd just like to note that at the time of their execution, basically no one in Russia gave a fuck about the Romanovs. All the people hated him by this point, no matter if they were Reds, liberals, or mensheviks. All of his "loyal" officers were glad he was gone since they could now achieve their dreams of a psudo-fascist military dictatorship - until Vladimir Lenin and the Workers and Peasants Red Army kicked their asses and threw out of all the meddling foreign powers :lenin-fancy:
Really the only people who cared were western elites, who were aghast at the rabble for l daring to kill one of their own while they waging the war to end all wars in europe. :gui-better:
But only the royal children, not the Jewish or peasant children.
Show me them crying for the X number of peasant children who had to die in pogroms to put one fancy shoe on one of their feet.
Fuck the Romanov kids. Ancestry.com should let you search the name for free just to find distant cousins.
Motherfuckers two of them were under 18. One was a 13 year old boy. They aren't responsible for the fucked up shit their parents did. I seriously thought people were doing a bit when they said that shooting kids who happened to be born to the wrong parents is good. You all were being serious?
Disgusting.
shooting kids who happened to be born to the wrong parents is good
Making up a person in my head to be angry at.
I literally do not care what happened to the Romanov kids. I only know their names because their parents were playing a real life game of Risk & lost. We do not remember the names of the millions slain in their family's name.
Fuck yeah I'm mad. I'm allowed to be mad at the fact that millions of children died needless death because of a merciless system of exploitation and cruelty. I'm also allowed to be mad about the fact that someone shot children to death and people don't care.
I'd be mad if someone protected a royalist dynasty while my country was torn apart by a war to reinstall them as dictators.
Feel free to play the trolly problem about murdering a child or providing a figure for the White Army to rally behind. I don't care. Be mad about that if you want.
99/100 people who say they care about both Romanov children and peasant children only care about peasant children when prompted after whining about the Romanov children.
the tens of millions of peasant kids who starved weren't responsible either. the bolsheviks were encircled and on the verge of the children being recaptured as a potent rallying point for the monarchists. appreciation of the enormity of the suffering visited by the Romanovs on their people combined with their hereditary system made it an unfortunate necessity
It's fucking terrible what happened to the peasant kids. The Russian Revolution was a good thing. Shooting a 13 year old still wasn't necessary. Even if you don't care about the fact that it involved putting a bullet in a literal child, shooting them risked turning them into martyrs that would inspire further monarchist action. We're still talking about this shit today, and we'll still be talking about it in decades, because of the Romanov kids. They were and are worth fifty times more to monarchists and elites dead then they were alive.
Shooting a 13 year old still wasn’t necessary.
Oh no, someone should tell that to the handful of soldiers who decided to do it. Wait, they're all dead too, as is everyone who at least tacitly approved of their actions and had some material ability to do anything about it? Well fuck, I guess they'll never know then.
We’re still talking about this shit today, and we’ll still be talking about it in decades, because of the Romanov kids.
It's still part of the Discourse because they were inbred royals, and so liberals and monarchists see them as the only real people to die in the Russian Revolution. You can find worse crimes that soldiers of the Red Army committed (often because they were court martialed and executed for them by the Red Army itself) and basically everything the White Army did at all was a worse crime, but all that gets washed away by liberals who focus exclusively on what is functionally a single drop in an ocean of blood.
It's also a part of the discourse because there are people who legitimately think similar things should be done to children of elites in the future. There's stakes behind this because there might be a day where the revolution is in your backyard. You might be wearing a uniform. You might be one of those handful of soldiers. If you are, and if you find yourself in a similar position, I hope you make a different choice.
think similar things should be done to children of elites in the future
Abolishing the right of parental inheritance and the right to property is going to mean the imprisonment and murder of a lot of people who will resist it. Now I dont see many places in the world where any of us are going to have to think about killing small children, but we have to be willing to win and be as ruthless to our enemies as they will be to us. Its not about killing innocent people, its about power. The quicker you can realize that the better you'll be able to respond to questions like "do I kill the Romanov children?"
What do you mean it's only about power? Bad shit isn't suddenly not bad because you're fighting for a cause. Revolution is not an amoral act. Revolution is the ultimate moral act and the ultimate moral decision. You cannot divorce morality from revolution without destroying the justification for revolution itself. The quicker you can realize that the better you'll be able to respond to questions like "do I kill the Romanov children?"
Doesn't that bring us back to the question the trolly problem about murdering a child or providing a figure for a reactionary White Army of racists, monarchists, and fascists to rally behind, not mentioning the de jure right for the other bougeoise monarchs to interfere to protect their cousins?
Maybe so. But it's better to struggle with that question than to pretend that we're absolved of responsibility just because it's a war.
You can find figureheads anywhere, and even if one didn't exist, they could have dredged up a "Romanov" from somewhere or tried to turn the family into martyrs. Lord known enough people over the years have claimed to be descendants. Killing the kid provides just as much of a de jure right for other monarchists as keeping him alive, and maybe even a stronger one.
Magical what-if trolley land is nice and all, but it doesn't take away from the concrete facts here. And the concrete facts here are that they put a child on the wall and the fighting kept going because killing him did fuck all.
It's actually not better to struggle with the question during a make or break moment. Not many people know this.
Maybe your just an idealist still, and thats all right, but I'm not. I look at everything in shades of what gets and achieves power first, then what we do with it. I'm just not there at the just and moral revolution anymore, and nothing really screams revolution to me than extirpating a horrendous monarchy and leaving it unable to come alive again. The capitalists are going to and have thrown hell at us, there no evil in being a demon in those circumstances.
You’re no comrade of mine.
You dont get to make that decision. When the capitalists throw child soldiers and suicide bombers at us, I'll shoot em and take your nightmares. Global communist revolution is not going to be a grand and pretty thing, millions of people will die in horrible ways.
Do whatever you want, but don't say you're doing it for me. We may not be enemies but we're not comrades either.
socialism is a project of love and reconciliation. Once we vote out the capitalist class and do a march like they did in V for Vendetta, the state and bourgeois class will accept it. With a dignified anger and harumph, they will quietly and ultimately come to understand that society has moved on and fade into oblivion peaceably.
I mean I'm still holding out a sliver of hope that something like that will happen but realistically that's gonna be very far from the truth.
I was kind of with you until you started with the masturbatory "holier than thou" bullshit. The Romanov children could have been handled better but you are legitimately delusional if you actually believe a revolution can be 100% morally clean, that's just not how things work.
Hell even in an anarchist revolution there were excesses, CNT/FAI killed a bunch of nuns for pretty much no good reason. It's something that's going to happen, sometimes the fault will be with evil people just wanting to do violence, sometimes it will be an accident, sometimes it will be misinformation, but it's for sure going to happen and there's not much you can do about it. You can and should minimize it but it will happen.
You dont get to make that decision. When the capitalists throw child soldiers and suicide bombers at us, I’ll shoot em and take your nightmares. Global communist revolution is not going to be a grand and pretty thing, millions of people will die in horrible ways.
How hard was your cock when you posted this?
Well I hope you don't get domed by like the Iowa national guard during the American uprising them
I probably am! Communist revolution/fascist victory means we're probably all or most of us are going to die, in very horrible ways.
I disagree with the premise. I think if Corona proved anything its that there is no circumstance where Americans at large will make sacrifices. People won't even put masks on to stop mass slaughter I don't think there is any chance they will go out and die for very online political philosophies.
Climate change probably isnt going to be much better then either. I have a feeling there will be something, the contradictions are just too fucking intense. If not a radical revolt then some reactionary dystopia will take over/ continue consolidating power against anything even remotely left wing, foreign or domestic.
What is the justification for revolution? Do you think your explanation holds up when looking at real revolutions?
They were and are worth fifty times more to monarchists and elites dead then they were alive.
I'm not trying to be rude, but do you actually know how royal bloodlines work? Kinda can't do that if there are no more heirs.
martyrs
I mean the Russian Orthodox Church did canonize the entire family
It was truly unnecessary and if nothing else strategically messy. Revolution is nothing if not messy.
Yes. History is made by monsters. They fate to die was sealed by their parents letting other children stave to death. It is a tragic sacrifice they didn't chose to make. For the greater good, it was worth not having to risk them growing up to raise an army to try to restore the empire. Which, given hindsight, probably would have worked. Wouldn't the world now be a worse place with The russian empire a UN protected anti-comunist nation of modern serfdom?
I don't give a shit about who does or doesn't make history, and murdering them created martyrs that made raising an army just as easy. They put a child on the wall. Children don't get the wall. That's what matters.
Did it? That is a large counferfactual. Every foruth child that was born under the romanovs got the wall. Oe something like that. Liberals havent bothered to look up the numbers because they only care about princesses.
So play it out? What would have happened if they were taken to the red army? Would they be successful reducated? Would they be a constant source of risk in a troubled time?
I am firmly in the 'I don't give a crap' camp. Killing children is of course bad, but tens of thousands of children died in poverty and squalor in Russia during that period, nevermind all the other shit that went on that harmed tons and tons people. Allocate your fucks given accordingly.
I mean it's sad, a child dying is sad, but lots of children die in war
Why are we shedding tears over the Red Army doing what 3 paper cuts would have done a year later?
What happened to them was tragic, children are innocent. But it happened more than a century ago. If you had to feel sad for every kid who died in war since then you would go mad.
There are children being killed today. Let's focus our attention on them instead.
Kids dying bad. They didn't deserve it.
But maybe, don't use your kids as a deadly weapon to maintain the power to kill other peoples' kids.
Like, oh fucking well. Turns out a hereditary monarchy is a unique human innovation that was capable of turning a 5-year old into an engine of mass murder and suffering of thousands or millions of other 5 year olds. Nobody could have guessed it was possible, but we're a uniquely creative bunch aren't we?
The kids would never have been murdered if the Romanovs had just dismantled the system peaceably. And maybe if I carry a baby while I do a mass shooting, it's MY fault the baby gets shot along with me. It's honestly an outrage that the Romanovs would be so callous as to risk the lives of their own children in order to maintain their brutal domination of the Russian people.
Reminder that Mussolini's
daughtergranddaughter is a fascist politician who gets mad at Jim Carrey on Twitter. There are both benefits and downsides to keeping these people alive sometimes.
