Well, not the same level (conservatives are clearly worse) but the line is increasingly becoming blurred in this day and age. Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but they are far more likely to shit on communism (while calling themselves lefist) and making excuses for the United States
I know "leftist infighting" has been a thing since forever, but it really seems like they're closer to reformed capitalism than anything resembling socialism...
Lots of frankly terrible replies in this thread. Our project is not a secret club where you get to hang out with your cool friends and sneer at the normies from the sidelines.
We're careening towards ecological collapse. Right this moment billions are suffering under the boot of capitalism, and billions may soon die to disasters, famines, climate wars, fascist crackdowns on the desperate poor, imperialist flailing in the collapsing world order.
We don't get to write off 99% of people as "too far gone". We agitate, educate, organise. We bully, pontificate, cajole, do whatever it takes. If the communist dream is to have any hope for a future we simply cannot afford to emulate the Western socialists of yesteryear and passively watch from our high towers as the world burns.
All that said, it's completely understandable to get frustrated with libs and this site is here for us to vent and feel sane for a bit. Things can get a bit doomer at times, but this place gas genuinely been a boon to my mental health.
We don’t get to write off 99% of people as “too far gone”. We agitate, educate, organise. We bully, pontificate, cajole, do whatever it takes. If the communist dream is to have any hope for a future we simply cannot afford to emulate the Western socialists of yesteryear and passively watch from our high towers as the world burns
:xi-clap: here here.
This statement does not exclude shitlibs, succdems, hogs, your gramp-gramp that shouts at his TV, veterans that hated what they did, the annoying protestants that knock on your door to ask you if you know the good news - and the answer you give is that you realized Jesus was the first communist and that salvation for humanity comes through emulating his actions of uplifting the working poor -, your apartment neighbors, your coworkers, etc.
Communists speak to anyone who listens and listens to anyone who speaks to them in turn. Be tactful of course lol. Don't screm about how you want to make Stalin or Mao look like Jesus with the amount of society reforming you want to do
I mean, if anything Jesus was even more radical than Stalin. Basically just walked around pushing the big communism button.
fucking :this:
e: To piggy-back on this point actually, it's natural to feel frustration, and as OP says, disdain, but you have to remember that these people could have been comrades under better circumstances, your disdain is for the system that propagandized them and not themselves as people
This. Getting frustrated with the people you’re agitating and educating is a matter of personal emotional regulation. Of course we can judge these people morally, but for those of us who are capable, a lot that is more about avoiding whatever duty we have to improve our surroundings and communities
agitating and educating is a matter of personal emotional regulation.
I just want to say that we don't want to go too far on this. Some of us have bad days, weeks, months when we just simply can't. And that's fine, mental health is hugely important and we need to be understanding of our comrades who are having difficulties dealing with life itself, let alone all the bullshit that comes along with revolutionary agitation.
We just can't give up. We take our time, get help, get back up and we keep going.
Absolutely. Part of that regulation is recognizing limits, establishing boundaries, self care, etc.
social democrats are reactionaries who will kill you just as fast as the most rabid nazi when it actually comes to real change beyond platitudes and slogans. they literally have done as much before, most famously with the murder of Rosa Luxemburg when the SDP called in the Freikorps, anti communists who would be core founders of the actual nazis, to crush the communist movement in Berlin.
'leftist infighting' is more about anarchists and communists, or marxist leninists and maoists ect squabbling over the details of how to implement actual socialism and not capitalist reform. we do not fundamentally have the same founding ideas or end goals as social democrats, who have time and time again fought against organising workers, struggles against imperialism in the third world, and at home against radical racial justice
leftist infighting’ is more about anarchists and communists, or marxist leninists and maoists ect squabbling over the details of how to implement actual socialism and not capitalist reform
That's kinda what I was thinking, but I guess I just try to give them the benefit of the doubt (which I can't do).
I'm not well-versed in leftist theory or anything else other than the surface level ideas expressed in some very introductory texts
I’m not well-versed in leftist theory or anything else other than the surface level ideas expressed in some very introductory texts
Well, there you go - would you be open to reading some? I'm not he most versed myself, but if its a question of time commitment, or wanting the ideas presented in modern verbiage rather than 1800s prose, there are plenty of people here that can point you to things that would be beneficial reading!
Depends if you are talking about socdem politicians fully on board with its usual pro-capitalists, anti-communism program; or if you are talking about "soc dem voters" who want free healthcare, better life conditions, etc
it really seems like they’re closer to reformed capitalism than anything resembling socialism…
Of course this is the case? They don't claim to be socialists and explicitly want to reform capitalism. They're unsalvageable
I think you need to make a distinction between ordinary succdems and professional succdems. Lots of working class people arrive at succdemery when they experience society around them being shitty and look for solutions within the liberal system they've been raised to see as the extent of respectable, or even possible, politics. These people have the best intentions and can be moved too the left.
And then there's the professional succdems: Politicians, union bosses, etc. — everyone who draws a salary from being succdem. They are some of the worst people alive, a bunch of Rosa killing bastards, vicious anti-communists and self-congratulatory bullshit artists. Objectively the moderate wing of fascism. Never trust them at all. They will betray the left again and again and again.
This kind of infighting is what allows capital to thrive and succeed.
We need to focus on sticking together and presenting a united front.
Fascists won't differentiate between us when they put us all against the wall.
Fascists won’t differentiate between us when they put us all against the wall.
If soc dems are carrying water for fascists though with their anti-"tankie" bullshit...
historically, socdems have been the least concerned with the threat of fascism. communists started antifa, socdems called in the freikorps. that the nazis later killed the socdems too should be proof that compromise with capital is impossible and socdemism is an idealist dead end.
Is anyone today alive that was there when that happened? You are arguing with people that have been dead for 80 years
european socdems are all "strategically" trying to bring voters back from the new fascist parties not just by rhetoric, but actual policy. much in the same way that democrats are trying to out-republican the republicans. social democracy is alive and well. if even the ones that died all those years ago, that were actually linked with a broad worker's movement, couldn't stand up to fascism, what should we expect of their modern hollowed and corrupted counterparts?
Let's make sure we have our terms lined up (this is mostly me). Is the DSA in America socdem?
I don't know much about them, but they seem like a jumble of different orientations. What is their praxis? Getting Bernie elected? Discourse?
yeah prolly. i only know one soc dem in real life, and when it comes to talking about politics or something they are infinitely less of a piece of shit than any fucking dumb redneck ass trump idiot i could talk to.
The socdems I know don't want to murder queer people but the conservatives do, so no.
Yeah but they aren't actively trying to murder me so I dislike them less.
Maybe because I live in the heart of chudistan but just knowing a socdem would be a big relief for me.
modern socdems are liberals. sure once they were basically a strain of socialist.. i mean i guess they still had the end goal of a stateless classless society but achieved through reformism.
i'd still take a socdem like bernie over any chud or neoliberal politician. socdems in real life i think would be easier to push left then any other liberal, since they often at least have some class consiosuness. plus we all often start there (at least in the U.S.). but actual, committed socdems do get on my nerves too esp if their end goal is just a welfare state and woke capitalism.Yes lol.
The main thing is to distinguish between people who are politically fixed, and those who are just wandering and can be pulled left. We need as many people on our side as possible and can't afford to reject misguided almost-comrades.
But you know, sometimes all you can do is plant a seed of doubt and then go about your life. Sometimes all you can do is help people out and answer if they ask why.
It's the completely blind idealism that gets me. They will never accept a scenario where they are not on the side of righteous progress.
Material. Conditions. Speaking as someone who used to be a Christian, I know just how frankly impossible it is to change someone's mind who isn't in a 'sensitive' frame of mind (made me feel gross just typing that). If someone isn't looking for a new answer to the way their world is going tits up, they're not going to listen to you. Why would they? They've got it all sorted out. I know this because I've tried to argue with people who've I've sent actual physical money to in order to support them after their roof collapsed in. Their answer? Not solidarity, but continued slide into fascism.
Maybe you can plant a seed, but I've given up on trying to change hearts and minds. That's a battle for someone else to fight. For now, all I'm going to do is support the people who need help and assist the people who have some kind of socialist plan.
Yes, because reducing porky rate of profit is valiant goal in itself. Also due to being :blob-no-thoughts: they are less likely to support empire
