Democratic Congress members and Anti-Defamation league censure Michigan lawmaker for saying 'you cannot claim to hold progressive values yet back Israel’s apartheid'
Where is the evidence that Israel practices apartheid? I don't mean HRW reports or that nonsense. I mean, the actual laws of Israel. I keep pointing out the apartheid and I keep getting denied by people who call me an anti-Semite. Amnesty International and the usual suspects won't be accepted by them as a source as they'll just call them anti-Semites too.
I'm trying to convince hardcore Israeli supporters and while I'm at it, neutrals. You can spout all the atrocities you like and they'll just say "Hamas deserved it" or some other such nonsense. I need to draw explicit links between South African apartheid and Israeli apartheid, ideally using Israel's own laws. Failing that, videos of hardcore Israelis saying shit like "fuck yeah we have apartheid and it's great."
You're not going to convince hardcore israeli supporters. People like that typically hold political beliefs not because they're true or false, but because of material interests. If it is in their perceived material interests to support Israel, they will, regardless of how bad they are. But read Norm Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe.
Here's some heart-wrenching videos if you're talking to people whose hearts can be wrenched.
Again. I stress "de facto" versus "de jure" here. Israel doesn't need laws literally saying "we do apartheid!" They just need to impose something like apartheid through physical force. Legal-brained liberals only care about de jure oppression. If the state is capable of violently enforcing oppression without legal backing, it will! Bourgeois laws aren't enforced on the ruling class! Constitutional protections don't apply to oppressed groups!
All of that is just oppression. Those videos could have been taken in Chile during Pinochet or Philippines during Marcos. I don't think people have done the work to understand what apartheid actually is, and just equate it to "something bad" in their brains.
I'm trying to gather evidence of Israeli apartheid to save for the next time this comes up and yet all I'm getting is "they're mean to the Palestinians".
The biggest ones are that the West Bank and Gaza are subject to Israeli martial law and have their borders and territory regulated by the state of Israel without the Palestinians within those territories receiving enfranchisement in the Israeli political system or their parliamentary system; there is no recourse for Palestinians to "sue" Israelis or the state of Israel for civil or criminal offenses.
You can also point out that the state of Israel and Israelis displace and dispossess the Palestinians living in the West Bank through buildings of settlements - de facto annexing the West Bank - and Palestinians having no civil or political remedies outside of violence and protests. They're being expelled from their homes and being forced to live in squalor, poverty, and immiseration to be dependent upon being cheap labor for Israel. A pseudo-serfdom as it were.
I'm going to assume good faith of you and tell you that if you are looking for comprehensive academic sources and primary evidence from this website/forum, you're gambling your time in either antagonizing others or simply not receiving satisfactory information and resources for your personal audience. If you are or were in undergraduate studies, invoke those skills to investigate for your own sake on the internet.
but it's not de jure and explicitly sanctioned in legalese by the perpetrators so the OP of this thread won't find it a compelling enough example, you see :yes-honey-left:
The area controlled by the Palestinian state is divided into tiny Bantustans, surrounded by hostile Zionist occupation forces. It is like that now and it has been like that in every "peace plan" for the last few decades. Neither the Zionists nor their backers in the US have any intentions of ever letting Palestinians control enough of their own country to have a sovereign, functioning state.
Well, one aspect is that, as the article mentions is that Israel has declared itself a "Jewish State". That's a problem when a majority of your population (when you include the West Bank and Gaza) or a sizeable minority (excluding those two regions) are explicitly not Jewish / Palestinian. Just imagine if apartheid South Africa claimed they were a "white ethnostate"?
Also, maybe more to your point, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections despite not having meaningful autonomy (ostensibly the reason Israel disenfranchises them). This conveniently makes Palestinians the voting minority in Israel where otherwise they would be the majority without this one weird trick. If that's not apartheid I don't know what is.
This is the wrong approach. Even if Israel had an explicit law called the "Apartheid the Palestinians Law", those people would still call you an anti-semite for pointing it out.
That Israeli law declaring it an ethnostate: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/19/630368973/israel-passes-controversial-law-reserving-national-self-determination-for-jews
And the Prime Minister at the time taking to "social media" to affirm its intention:
“Israel is not a state of all its citizens,” he wrote in response to criticism from an Israeli actor, Rotem Sela. “According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people – and only it. As you wrote, there is no problem with the Arab citizens of Israel. They have equal rights like all of us and the Likud government has invested more in the Arab sector than any other government,” he said of his rightwing party.
As the comments caused waves in Israel, Netanyahu again spoke of the issue at the start of a cabinet meeting. He called Israel a “Jewish, democratic state” with equal rights, but “the nation state not of all its citizens but only of the Jewish people”.
Obviously self-contradicting drivel at best, at worst a confession that Palestinians would have just been gassed instead of relegated to an open air prison if not for the international attention. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/10/benjamin-netanyahu-says-israel-is-not-a-state-of-all-its-citizens
Sorry for giving an incomplete answer at best, but one thing that comes to mind is the IDF and the extremely different recruitment rules for Orthodox Jews, Non-ortho Jews, Non-Jews, and Arabs.
Where is the evidence that Israel practices apartheid? I don't mean HRW reports or that nonsense. I mean, the actual laws of Israel. I keep pointing out the apartheid and I keep getting denied by people who call me an anti-Semite. Amnesty International and the usual suspects won't be accepted by them as a source as they'll just call them anti-Semites too.
Read "The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories " by Ilan Pappe. He's Israeli. He's Jewish. He's willing to condemn Israel's apartheid. TL;DR Israel has segregation down to the highway system. Raw sewage gets pumped into the swimming waters of the gaza strip. Palestinians in the gaza strip are constantly being rationed electricity to only a few hours a day. Their apartments are bombed with impunity. Lynch mobs go door to door hurting palestinians sometimes. There is nonstop annexation of Palestinian territory with new settlements. "Apartheid" is frankly generous. It's been a slow motion genocide since 1948. Zionism started in the 1800s as a desire for European Jews to escape European antisemitism but they decided on annexing lands people already lived in so it became a genocidal settler-colonial project with Western backing.
None of that is apartheid, though. Apartheid is stuff like not being able to buy land because it's a white area.
"it's bad but it's not the exact word according to this very limited definition i have decided to impose" :very-intelligent:
glad you agree it's bad. Have you ever heard of a "de facto" vs. "de jure" distinction. They have de facto apartheid.
I'm trying to convince hardcore Israeli supporters and while I'm at it, neutrals. You can spout all the atrocities you like and they'll just say "Hamas deserved it" or some other such nonsense. I need to draw explicit links between South African apartheid and Israeli apartheid, ideally using Israel's own laws. Failing that, videos of hardcore Israelis saying shit like "fuck yeah we have apartheid and it's great."
You're not going to convince hardcore israeli supporters. People like that typically hold political beliefs not because they're true or false, but because of material interests. If it is in their perceived material interests to support Israel, they will, regardless of how bad they are. But read Norm Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe.
Here's some heart-wrenching videos if you're talking to people whose hearts can be wrenched.
A Palestinian man lists all the family members he lost when IDF bombed his home.
A 10 year old girl breaks down after air strikes destroyed her neighbors' home
Israeli lynch mob and police breaking into a palestinian home in Haifa
IDF attacking and harrassing Palestinian medics trying to do their job, repeatedly dumping an injured man off of a stretcher
IDF disguising themselves among palestinian protesters, begin firing from inside the crowd
Jewish American Activist beaten by Israeli police for supporting Palestinians
Palestinian woman describes how she had her phone seized for filming IDF beating a child
Again. I stress "de facto" versus "de jure" here. Israel doesn't need laws literally saying "we do apartheid!" They just need to impose something like apartheid through physical force. Legal-brained liberals only care about de jure oppression. If the state is capable of violently enforcing oppression without legal backing, it will! Bourgeois laws aren't enforced on the ruling class! Constitutional protections don't apply to oppressed groups!
All of that is just oppression. Those videos could have been taken in Chile during Pinochet or Philippines during Marcos. I don't think people have done the work to understand what apartheid actually is, and just equate it to "something bad" in their brains.
i think you're concern trolling at this point.
I'm trying to gather evidence of Israeli apartheid to save for the next time this comes up and yet all I'm getting is "they're mean to the Palestinians".
deleted by creator
The biggest ones are that the West Bank and Gaza are subject to Israeli martial law and have their borders and territory regulated by the state of Israel without the Palestinians within those territories receiving enfranchisement in the Israeli political system or their parliamentary system; there is no recourse for Palestinians to "sue" Israelis or the state of Israel for civil or criminal offenses.
You can also point out that the state of Israel and Israelis displace and dispossess the Palestinians living in the West Bank through buildings of settlements - de facto annexing the West Bank - and Palestinians having no civil or political remedies outside of violence and protests. They're being expelled from their homes and being forced to live in squalor, poverty, and immiseration to be dependent upon being cheap labor for Israel. A pseudo-serfdom as it were.
I'm going to assume good faith of you and tell you that if you are looking for comprehensive academic sources and primary evidence from this website/forum, you're gambling your time in either antagonizing others or simply not receiving satisfactory information and resources for your personal audience. If you are or were in undergraduate studies, invoke those skills to investigate for your own sake on the internet.
but it's not de jure and explicitly sanctioned in legalese by the perpetrators so the OP of this thread won't find it a compelling enough example, you see :yes-honey-left:
Shut the fuck up
You're never going to convince them. They don't want to be convinced and will willfully ignore evidence that is contrary to their position.
Look at a map.
The area controlled by the Palestinian state is divided into tiny Bantustans, surrounded by hostile Zionist occupation forces. It is like that now and it has been like that in every "peace plan" for the last few decades. Neither the Zionists nor their backers in the US have any intentions of ever letting Palestinians control enough of their own country to have a sovereign, functioning state.
Not just bantustans. Bantustans that look like swiss cheese, with Jewish settlements taking increasing amounts of the land every year.
Well, one aspect is that, as the article mentions is that Israel has declared itself a "Jewish State". That's a problem when a majority of your population (when you include the West Bank and Gaza) or a sizeable minority (excluding those two regions) are explicitly not Jewish / Palestinian. Just imagine if apartheid South Africa claimed they were a "white ethnostate"?
Also, maybe more to your point, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections despite not having meaningful autonomy (ostensibly the reason Israel disenfranchises them). This conveniently makes Palestinians the voting minority in Israel where otherwise they would be the majority without this one weird trick. If that's not apartheid I don't know what is.
Do you have links for those laws?
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
nope, they're the united states' ally against scary brown people, so anything goes.
UN report called Israel an apartheid state (the report can be read here) but Israel was able to apply enough pressure to get the report withdrawn
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-report/israel-imposes-apartheid-regime-on-palestinians-u-n-report-idUSKBN16M2IN
http://opiniojuris.org/2017/03/19/the-disappearing-un-report-on-israeli-apartheid/
This is the wrong approach. Even if Israel had an explicit law called the "Apartheid the Palestinians Law", those people would still call you an anti-semite for pointing it out.
yeah imagine thinking you could use facts and logic to change this guy's mind
My nickname for my fists are "facts" and "logic".
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Do you have a link for those laws?
deleted by creator
That Israeli law declaring it an ethnostate: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/19/630368973/israel-passes-controversial-law-reserving-national-self-determination-for-jews
And the Prime Minister at the time taking to "social media" to affirm its intention:
Obviously self-contradicting drivel at best, at worst a confession that Palestinians would have just been gassed instead of relegated to an open air prison if not for the international attention. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/10/benjamin-netanyahu-says-israel-is-not-a-state-of-all-its-citizens
Sorry for giving an incomplete answer at best, but one thing that comes to mind is the IDF and the extremely different recruitment rules for Orthodox Jews, Non-ortho Jews, Non-Jews, and Arabs.