Pic vaguely related. When playing persona 3/4/5 it slowly dawned on me how it's kind of fucked up that the game incentivizes you to always tell people what they want to hear and change your personality constantly to match the situation (swapping personas). It further encourages this by granting gameplay benefits for ranking relationships up, and at least in the case of 4, locking the true ending behind being the most efficient at getting people to like you.
I haven't played many visual novels/dating sims, but from my limited experience the interesting ones tend to acknowledge this in some way. Doki Doki gets kind of close with it's meta fuckery but the focus is more on how being a visual novel character would suck than about player manipulation. Echo nods in this direction in some scenes where people notice how off the player character is acting, but it's mainly about gay trauma and some other stuff I think I don't get because a) I'm not from a decaying american small town and b) I'm not a furry. Not in the genre, but I thought that was where Deltarune was going with the weird route, but the recent lore dump points more in the direction of commenting on sequence breaking/glitching the game for some as of now unknown purpose.
I feel like the premise of a game calling you out for acting creepy as fuck is obvious enough that something like this must already exist. Does it ?(reccs for good VNs in general are also appreciated)
Changing my entire personality to people please is literally what I do
That works well in the long run and has zero impact on your mental health and psychological stability. Trust me.
How can we express the complexity and hopeful anxiety of meeting a new person? With a series of IF statements, of course!
This reminds me of my first Disco Elysium playthrough, if you pretend to be down with racism to get on Measurehead or the Lorry Driver's good side, Kim will pull you to the side and ask you what the fuck you're doing :lt-dbyf-dubois: Kim makes a lot of passive remarks whenever you employ 'unorthodox techniques' in your detective work, he's such a great foil to a player-character who regularly picks insane options.
The next racist will be better than the last. He will be our lucky racist. He will grant us three wishes.
i think to truly meet this genre on its terms you have to roleplay, something which most gamers are totally unwilling to do. completionism is detrimental to one's personal development.
I roleplay as the option that gives me the most cool items and money
I haven't played many games with visual novel / dating sim elements (Persona 5, Dream Daddy, a bit of AI: Somnium Files) but you're right that they seem to lean into the video-game logic rather than humanity to varying degrees.
I played Life Is Strange True Colours last year and despite not liking the previous ones really enjoyed it. There was a distinct character moment where I told someone what they wanted to hear in the moment to spare them some embaressment and avoid potential conflict. When that choice caused tension later and eventually backfired dramatically for me I was impressed. I had assumed I had chosen the 'best option' by playing it like a videogame choice, when actually everything would have worked out much better all round if I'd gone with my gut and treated it as an actual conversation.
Disco Elysium has a tiny bit of this riiiiiight before the end of the game.
Massive Spoiler
When you go into the dream sequence with Harry's ex/Dolores Dei, one of the reasons she gives for it not working out is that Harry follows dialog trees in-universe.
I don't know how much Hades is considered a VN but Zagreus seems sincere in most of his interactions and only gets cheeky when he's speaking with his dad until they come to a reconciliation. There's not really any choices to be made aside from something that doesn't seem to alter any further conversations but it's fun unlocking the dialogues, there's something like 20k lines of voiced dialogue.
I haven't played many visual novels or dating sims but I would also recommend Hatoful Boyfriend if the idea of being a human trying to date intelligent birds and maybe one of those birds is a cannibalistic wizard is appealing to you.
Seconded on Hades, right now I am trying to get Zag to date Thanatos and correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no benefit to starting that relationship, right? So I am choosing to date Thanatos solely because I want to: (that, and I feel too weird with romancing a boss I fight on the regular).
It doesn't impact the game as far as I know, I definitely opted in to having a emo twink boyfriend though. If you also date Megara there's a scene where they're both waiting in your bed chamber for a threesome. It does unlock dialogue I believe where Zagreus is feeling a little guilty about being poly and Megara tells him it's just something that Greek gods are into.
Yeah also
spoiler
it further doesn't really matter because you don't have to "pick one" in my game I am in a relationship with both Megaera and Thanatos.
spoiler
I was a little disappointed that Dusa is ace but they handled it really well and I didn't get my feelings hurt too bad.
but it’s mainly about gay trauma and some other stuff I think I don’t get because a) I’m not from a decaying american small town and b) I’m not a furry
???????
???????
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have gay trauma
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grew up in a decaying american small town
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furry
:wonder-who-thats-for:
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that's what I thought it was about from playing one route and hearing people talk about some of the others. I dunno I'm pretty dumb but liked the spooky vibes :blob-no-thoughts:
In the beginning of Persona 5 I liked hanging out with the delinquent hothead kid Ryuji. He's the first party member you get so there wasn't much else to do, and I liked the dynamic him and the main character had: being two misunderstood kids who were thrust into a supernatural situation, so they had no choice but to trust and support each other
But halfway through the game, I had maxed out our social link and the cast had expanded, so if he texted me that he wanted to hang out, the gameplay encourages ghosting him for somebody who can benefit me more
I guess real life is like that sometimes and it sucks then too, but it's an interesting aspect of a game about min-maxxing human relationships
While I'm complaining about video games, Fire Emblem: 3 Houses encourages you to tell people exactly what they want to hear in exchange for support points, to the point where characters will get into arguments and the best response is always to agree with the person you are talking to at that very moment, then change your mind when talking to the other person.
But the protagonist in this game is a teacher, who should probably be challenging the student's beliefs? Although I guess since most of the main characters are nobility/future knights, it's probably in one's best interests to suck up to them
I'd give persona a bit of a pass because it really emphasizes the importance of getting out there. Persona 4 in particular because you make the most of the small town you're in. Plus, I owe a little bit to the game because it gave me some inspiration to go outside more. Also, Yu Narukami isn't necessarily supposed to be a perfect reflection of the player. The game may be marketed worldwide but assumes you're Japanese so I had to google a lot of stuff for any of the school answers, cooking minigames, or anywhere it might be relevant. Plus, you cannot select Yu's gender.
As for personas, I would argue that they are fragments of Yu's personality that have remained hidden from him until he was ready to use them. As he connects with others, he learns more about himself as well. Or at least that's my take.
spoiler
Also, this video contrasts the player to Adachi, someone who became a dangerous sociopath thanks to completely isolating himself, leading him to become not so well-adjusted. Another thing about Adachi was his narcissism, he writes off Inaba entirely while Yu makes the most of his time there. This video explains it better than I can
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkcmxrkHXD0
That being said, I'm not writing off your ideas OP. The fact that it is a "game" can definitely be creepy and it's legitimately a good idea to make a game that deconstructs the trope. If you want a game that's a little bit less creepy, I recommend Hades. You start off being familiar with almost the entire cast, and while the keepsakes will help you a lot. Knowledge on who the cast is mostly your reward for talking to them. Technically I "beat" the game which done by succeeding in enough runs, but there's so much dialogue, achievements, and I wish to complete the fates list so there is more than plenty of post-game content as if you never really beat the game.
You can even choose to date Thanatos or Meg, and both of them are completely fine if you wanna date both.
Its not exactly what you're asking for but: I think Knights of the Old Republic II and Kreia specifically are Obsidian's meta commentary on choice and morality in videogames in this vein. From a certain point of view you could make the case they argue to act even more sociopathic...but the interesting thing they both acknowledge without fully breaking the fourth wall is that ultimately the player is the only one who truly has the ability to make any sort of choice and that ultimately nothing matters except for what they themselves have experienced along the way. Its essentially an argument that the moral/narrative framework a videogame choice and morality system presents is itself a statement about what the developers believe that can and should be interrogated and critiqued itself.
Since you asked for good VNs in general. I am really fond of the Higurashi series (mystery,horror) and I heard excellent things about The House in Fata Morgana.
This is partly what Groundhog Day (the Bill Murray film) is about. For a while Bill's character treats his strange situation exactly like a dating sim, trying to get into Andy McDowell's pants, but it's only when he starts being selfless that the spell breaks.
How do you eat steak with chopsticks? You literally have to cut it into pieces before you can eat it. Even Chinese people use a knife and fork to eat steak (and any Western food, really).
The food is cut into appropriately sized pieces in the kitchen as part of the preparation process rather than doing it at the table.
Nah, that's not the way you eat steak. Even Chinese people don't eat steak that way. Everyone knows you use a knife and a fork. It's Western food; use the appropriate utensils.
