I notice a lot of people use terms like "psychotic" or "psychopath" as insults and negative descriptions on here. These are clinical terms that are used to describe real people with difficulties, not boogeymen! I don't disagree with the sentiment that these people are doing wrong, but if you wouldn't use the r-slur or "autistic" as an insult (which you shouldn't) then you shouldn't use these words either. And I get the idea of calling someone delusional, but take care that you don't just mean "I disagree with them." Though by posting on neurodiverse I imagine I'm preaching to the choir.
Sincerely, a casual schizoaffective disorder haver.
Unfortunately very normalised in society. Even I was only alerted to words like "insane" being very hurtful a few months ago. I'm a big "absurd", "ridiculous" and of course "unserious" user now.
Good post,
hopefully there can be selfcrit and waning usage of these terms in harmful contexts.I usually open people's eyes on the term crazy when I have the right audience because our discourse around that term is the obvious stuff but also it implies that someone should be locked up or deprived of rights but it's also very common to use it to imply that someone "deserves" to be taken advantage of ("our prices are crazy" and "we've gone completely mad").
Kinda gross when you think about it, especially in the context of the stats on mentally ill people being abused and exploited.
I'm personally a big fan of understatement, so I like using ridiculously underwhelming insults. Like for this South Dakota governor, calling her meanie of rude when atrocious might be a more appropriate word.
"lame" and "crippled/crippled by" were pointed out to me by a friend who has muscular dystrophy a few years ago, they are also both incredibly common. I've sadly had quite a bit of pushback when trying to correct comrades on it (even in the old r/CTH sub)
hey have some more pushback
as a fellow "can't walk properly" person, the last time lame applied to me was a bible passage. the only times I'm (or anyone else, unless there's an american vs commonwealth english thing going on here) am reminded about the ability meaning is when etymology
s bring it up like it's a problem.it's certainly dated to call someone "a cripple" and, again in my experience, that's usually self-ID. Usages like crippling anxiety or a damaged mechanical system ("land a crippled airplane") don't seem to be disparaging or contributing to the marginalization of people so someone would have to explain to me how those are ableist.
Just passing along something that hurt my friend (and according to them, others in their circles). We also met at church so that may have played a part as well.
Yeah I ejected "crippled" from my vocab ages ago, I guess "hobbled" too? Unfortunately this kind of language change is still considered somewhat fringe, I think...
90% of the time "ghoul" and "ghoulish" are more apt descriptors for the kind of mindlessly destructive, hollow, anti-human, posessed-by-capital behavior we're talking about anyway.
Good post. I also dislike perjoratives about low intelligence, too. I’ve personally made a very committed effort to cut out ableist insults and language from my vocabulary.
Yeah, it can be almost surprising to see how much ableist language can sneak into our everyday language.
Just to add to the conversation, it is incredible how many words are rooted in ableism. If you're not actively checking your language, you likely use some words that aren't cool without knowing it. I grew up in the 90's which was right before people took this stuff seriously. I hate to admit it, but when I was a kid/teen, my best friend was more on the ball about this stuff and would point it out to me all the time. He really helped me think harder about the words I use.
Also there's this weird problem straight white males over a certain age have where their bigoted ass co workers just assume you're cool with it, and You're faced with the choice of causing a stink and facing being fired or ostracized, or you can let it roll off your back. There's definitely a middle ground, but it comes with risks to your livelihood just the same.
Also there's this weird problem straight white males over a certain age have where their bigoted ass co workers just assume you're cool with it, and You're faced with the choice of causing a stink and facing being fired or ostracized, or you can let it roll off your back. There's definitely a middle ground, but it comes with risks to your livelihood just the same
This one sucks, and I personally struggle with it surprisingly often. Ableism is the most common where I work, but of course these coworkers smuggle in other shit too. It's hard to find the line of correcting coworkers vs protecting your job (right to work state, so of course employment never feels entirely secure). That being said, I have had pretty decent luck with a few more senior people at my current job, there's just a lot of pushback on anything they do not immediately understand. Still don't feel comfortable enough to unmask around these people or be out at work by any means, but there is that sliver of a silver lining.
Right to work is a crime against humanity, full stop. I live in a slightly more civilized country where that would be absolutely unthinkable to put into law and is SUPER illegal to practice. Co-workers being ableist etc and management allowing it or worse participating is something you could report to the labor board because in a normal place a right to work means that you are protected from discrimination on the job from co-workers and especially employers. Your boss catches shit from the government and probably gets fined and you're basically immune from being fired after because if it could be linked to being retaliatory in any way, that's even worse. Instead you'll just get your hours cut down to next to nothing so you have to quit. To legally fire someone there needs to be written cause and certain causes are protected from immediate termination and require a written warning and then a repeat of whatever violation. Now, a LOT of people here don't know their rights and haven't read the labor code, but we are covered for that stuff.
Instead you'll just get your hours cut down to next to nothing so you have to quit.
that's still fucked tho and is "constructive dismissal"
My job is surprisingly in a good place with that stuff right now. That hasn't been the case most o the time I've been there though. If it was bad enough, we say something to management. Sometimes I just have to let it roll off my back though. That doesn't mean I partake, but I tell myself "they're the one being shitty. Just because it hits my ears doesn't make me complicit". I wish we lived in a world where we could stand up every time, but that's just not how people are in the US.
It seems to be trending better though
I have found workplace wise that most of the 'above a certain age' crowd is finally mostly out ofnthe work force. I've certainly seen a big turnaround working kitchens that way, probably cause line cooks age out earlier, once you start getting to around 50, you gotta find something that destroys your body less. They used to be absolute cesspits of toxic masculinity and it's almost completely reverses what was normal just like 7 years ago will get your ass fired now cause the chef is an older millennial, the more senior staff are in their 30s and the main bulk of grunts are Gen z, that and the demographics of the working poor have gotten way further left and a LOT more queer.
My job is essentially ran by a 40ish year old turbolib woman who is pretty good about removing bad elements. I've worked with her for over a decade and she's told me over the years that she's had a lot of trouble with older men having that "I have pairs of jeans older than you" mentality. You're right about the old people getting phased out though. Most of the people I work with are around 40. It's weird and cool seeing what Gen Z has been bringing to the table though.
First generation to not be able to say the F slur in elementary school. As a group on general, kitchen wise, they're usually fucking awesome. Quick on the up take, usually not afraid to ask questions and what they ask tends to show they're looking at the big picture where old dudes working the line are tunnel vision AF, and they don't take shit. As a millenial, their average guys seem to be as good as our pretty good guys. Most of their worst guys are only as bad as our bottom tier average guys. There's for sure been a bump up in decency. Generations are fake anyway, but there seems to be a general sense of solidarity between us as well, like we're just the same people but older, Gen x is now known for its TERFs and boomers are boomers. There can be some kinda funny splits regarding pop culture stuff but aside from that, it's basically the same people.
Since it wasn't mentioned, please make sure to file a mod report if you do see ableist comments. Mods aren't omnipotent and omnipresent Cthulonic cosmic horrors waiting in the shadows for one of you to slip up so we can bonk you with the silly hammer, so if you see something
say somethingreport it!Mods aren't omnipotent and omnipresent Cthulonic cosmic horrors
Speak for yourself
I helped make you, don't give me any lip young great old one!
Hexbear mod application: what Bloodborne ending did you get first
Been years since I last tried but I couldn't even beat the first boss
Only Fromsoft game where that's ever happened to me
I think it's also important that the site - both moderators and users - have a culture of proportional justice rather than "Black and White" morality.
Users typically treat the "Report" button as a "I think this user should be immediately, indefinitely, and irrevocably banned" button, and are hesitant to use it in cases where they don't think such a harsh punishment is appropriate (and also because, especially on Lemmy, their account is visible to moderators who might retaliate against an apparently-overzealous reporter).
If someone calls something crazy/psycho/etc. in apparently good faith they, at worst, deserve to have their comment removed and get a bit of scoldmail nagging them about their language.
Ableism on Hexbear?
43 comments, (35 new)
okay read the comments, thread's cool
yeah we need to do better on that. brainstorming alternate words might help. I've taken to calling people dipshits but that doesn't really work for this sort of unhinged, vile behavior.
Vicious, monstrous, sadistic, depraved, detestable or reprehensible (especially morally)
Depraved I think is an especially good one! It has that venom without (as far as I know) being unintentionally hateful.
This thread makes me think that maybe we could brainstorm a post which has common ableist terms to provide suggestions for alternatives to drive a bit of gentle culture change.
I use words like ridiculous, laughable, senseless, absurd, and wild (e.g. wild idea/let's not get wild) a lot in the place of crazy. I could do better but I'm reasonably good on it.
I need to do better on terms like stupid and dumb. I know on the slur scale they're very mild but that's not a good excuse.
This sounds like a great idea! I don't know a lot of slurs, but I know the ones that bother me. (Most of them were in the post already) But we could invite others to share ones that bother them and we can hopefully achieve this!
we've tried a few times but it's basically impossible to find drop-in 1:1 replacements that are concise and evocative. Scatalogical is usually safest but even something like shithead is ableism if we're strict about it.
"Despicable" is my go-to.
(Also, greetings fellow Cupcake).
Am I wrong for thinking psychopathy should be treated
just as badin the same way as sadism?So as I understand it, psychopathy is a disorder that incorporates low empathy and antisocial behaviors. A psychopath need not be a mass murderer and can, in fact, be indistinguishable from any other person on the street. The connotation of being a harmful, violent person is not necessarily the reality. My stance is "Any person is capable of any thing."
Some would argue that being indifferent to others’ suffering is
just as bad asequal to taking pleasure in it. If we’re going to treat the word psychopath as derogatory, you could say the same about sadist.I'm pretty sure "sadist" isn't used to demonize and stigmatize neurodivergent people the way "psychopath" is (at least, I haven't personally come across it in that context but if someone else has pls lmk.) Therein lies the difference imo. Low empathy is not an inherently "evil" trait btw, it is a very common trait among neurodivergent people in fact. Painting people with low empathy as bad people because of their low empathy is ableist.
Quick internet search later: it seems "sadistic personality disorder" is an unofficial personality disorder that some people subscribe to. Hmm. That's definitely one ableist context for the word, so I'm wrong there.
So part of being inclusive towards all sorts of neurodivergent people is embracing, encouraging, and accommodating their differences, right? Are we supposed to to treat people who take pleasure in making others suffer the same way?
You were right about “psychopath” before, I’m kind of wondering how we should treat sadism then.
you lose a lot of consideration when your divergence puts others at risk. Maybe some non-fetish sadists need something like that dementia village.
Right. I think the difference there is that a psychopath typically has a physical difference in their brain that limits their empathy ability. Now you can also say a sadist is born with the desire and they can't really control it, so I'm not sure where the answer lies there. I typically don't use sadist as an insult (or at all, really) but I can see the arguments.
Is being a sadist and being a sadist as kink categorically different? Its just a responsiblity/ consent thing, like you can be a totally healthy person who is a sadist, right? I'm phrasing this poorly, but equating it with psychopathy on a mental health level seems wrong to me, not that either one should imply "bad person", is there anyone who could educate me on this?
I’m no expert but I do think there is a difference between sexual sadism and general sadism.
i have flirted with sadism when i was younger. like i would really, really be compelled to hurt things when extremely stressed and almost harmed some pets before. luckily i was able to stop myself but the compulsion was incredibly strong and part of me wanted to just get relief
also have some sexual sadism used kink as a safe sane consensual outlet for it. it's only fun with people that enjoy it
Yes, psychopathy isn't really a thing, the actual diagnosis that coincides with what previously was psychopathy is antisocial personality disorder. Much like all the other cluster B personality disorders, ASPD is often misunderstood, and media portrayals (as well as the popular imagination) get them completely wrong.
"Bloodthirsty warmongers" might work here and there? (Thinkin about alternative insults for imperial core governmental people)
those are good, they all imply the person is dumb or lazy or just "bad" tho, I struggle more to find words for calculated uncaring evil, or behavior that flagrantly violates all normal social boundaries in order to do harm, than calling people ignorant, incompetent, or just bad
Language to go off on someone for being a dickhead that doesn't catch ND or marginalized people in the collateral is a lot more common than language for telling someone their ideas aren't good, which all seem to be predicated on insisting they instead actually have a neurological condition that many people struggle with.
With the added bit of not necessarily being accurate. Even if they do struggle with the condition, that doesn't mean their idea is bad. The idea being bad is what does.
Good post. And like others I’ll chime in with the casual ableism regarding intelligence, it takes an effort to cut out those phrases, but it’s worth it and should be encouraged.
Yeah. They can be hard to cut out, but I am trying. Ableism is just so ingrained in US culture it can be hard to even become aware of things you're saying that can be ableist. But it's definitely worth it.
Yeah, in the same way that white hexbears have shitty opinions about race, most NT have shitty behaviours regarding ND comrades. Just like liberals will call Trump and Putin gay, some hexbear users do the ND equivalent of that.
Respect for identity and not using harmful language is a privilege only given to the in-group. That's why it's common to make fun of Ben Shapiro's voice or height even though it's not a moral judgment on him and hurts comrades who have those same traits. Humans are humans.
As others have pointed out, ableism is pretty heavily embedded in mainstream culture and one of the more acceptable forms of discrimination.
I’m guilty of using words like stupid all the time and I’m ND myself. It’s hard to buck something that’s so commonplace.
You're absolutely right, I keep hearing "stupid", "idiot" and "insane" and "psycho" be used on Hexbear and other left spaces to describe what is mundane fash behavior done virtually all the time by neurotypicals who (news flash!) aren't afraid of any consequences for their actions. I'll make sure to call this out the next time I see it, our ND comrades shouldn't have to suffer just so someone can call Biden some ableist term for the 1000th time.
If someone doesn't agree, they need to be dealt with by the mod team.
I do want to show some grace, though. Like, the language is so common and socially accepted that it can be hard to realize you're stigmatizing people. Though I agree people who double down would be problematic.
I was surprised how positive the comments section was until I realized this was posted to !neurodiverse@hexbear.net
Agreed 100%.
Many words like these reside in a cultural space where you know they're punching down on ND people, but you somehow end up being treated like the asshole the moment you call someone out on it.
I think that's partially responsible for the term "brain worms" taking off in leftist spaces. Rhetorically, we all want some way to mock someone for being particularly intellectually lazy, naïve, or uncritical in their analysis, but it seems like all the words that have the intended weight on the receiver are all just direct comparisons to people with learning or psychiatric disabilities.
Exactly! Those descriptions are definitely the sense we often go for, but they don't carry the mocking tone we'd sometimes like to include, though it may just be inherent that something with a hurtful connotation must be harmful to someone. Otherwise it wouldn't really be hurtful.
Good post. I think I use these terms a lot without noticing. I will work on cutting out these words as pejoratives in my language.
I haven't played bloodborne
