I don't see a problem with it as long as no trafficking is involved.
I agree with this. I have found that most women do not however. It has been a great trouble for me, to talk about, when trying to find a new partner.
You should definitely bring this up as often as possible. Enjoying coerced intimacy is totally well adjusted behavior.
real big-brain take
Since it's safe to assume you don't talk to people in real life, here's a mass of "reviews" of sex workers. People who buy sex are disgusting.
mmmm gonna go out on a limb and say it's most likely for the same reason he started this thread
I want to live in a world where no one feels they are struggling so much that they need to turn to selling their body for sex.
However, I don't live in that world, so in the meantime I support sex workers, because sex work is work.
The men who use their services? That's a tougher nut to crack.
My partners brother is heavily mentally disabled and pushing 40, he's still very much like a child, but obviously does not have a child's libido. This man has never had an intimate interaction with a woman. He might never get the chance, he struggles to talk to women, even women who have similar issues as himself. I think sex workers could be beneficial for him, in the right context, for giving him intimacy he may otherwise never experience. I don't think he would ever think/know to pursue a sex worker, but I could be wrong. There's also the issue of his emotions began to be involved, which leads me to...
I'd be more worried about him finding OnlyFans and blowing through all his disability money each month instead of realizing he's not actually getting much out of such a "relationship." He's the kind of person who a parasocial relationship like that could really damage their already troubling mental health. The same thing could happen with a prostitute, but they are less likely to hang the relationships on fake social cues that say they care about you. He's not quite advanced enough to understand that these women are being paid to pretend to care, I don't think.
Also, there's other types of men who use these services I'm sure aren't a net positive. There are plenty of conservative men who already view a standard relationship as a sexual transaction (I take care of girl = she give me sex), so they're not far from viewing everything women with transactional already. Secondly, not only do the already view it as transactional, many of these conservative men turn to prostitutes because average women simply don't want to date them because of their horrible, outdated views on women's bodily autonomy. They are already angsty and moody because of women not wanting to date them, and they often are willing to take out their frustrations on the woman they paid to serve them. I see these men as not respecting and hurting the women they turn to for sex work.
Anyway, just some quick thoughts on the subject.
Gross. How can you even enjoy sex when you essentially bought someone's consent?
I understand the sentiment, but "buying consent" is a difficult line of thinking when you follow it all the way through.
CW: SA
There's sex workers who are sexually assaulted by clients, some brothels have panic buttons in their rooms for this reason. So if you follow the "prostitution is legalized r*pe" line of thinking, what's that then? Wasn't the sex worker in question already violated when they entered the contract with the client? Is that a case of double sexual assault?
I don't think that idea holds much water in all cases. It often does, but you cannot apply it universally to all sex work. That's because you can't just "buy consent", a sex worker still has very specific conditons for giving you conditional consent that only extends to a select number of specified acts, to certain time frames, certain areas of their body and so on, and they can revoke that consent when things turn south because the john starts to behave badly. And ultimately, all consensual sexual acts are in some ways conditional, even if it's the unspoken agreements in vanilla heteronormative relationships. It takes a massive level of trust and the knowledge that your partner will always intuitively accept your boundaries to allow them to do what they want with you and actually mean it. And when i look at it that way, i do not think that you can just override somebody's ability to consent by giving them money. There is already some form of consent to these acts involved when somebody agrees to pick up that line of work. It's difficult to say where that ends, moreso than in sexual realtions outside of sex work, i'd fully agree to that, and that's highly problematic, but it's not as clearcut as "all sex work is a form of SA because you bought consent the sex worker normally wouldn't have given to you".
(rest of the post is just general musings not directed at you, comrade, i'm only putting them here because i think this works better in one post).
That said, i'm very much not a fan of people buying sex work, and yes, that includes porn. Sorry guys, i know that most of you can't nut on your own without this stuff, for reasons i've always failed to understand, but it's how it is. The reason for my attitude isn't that i disagree with sex work per se, my support actually always lies with the workers and puts their concerns first, which is why i DO NOT support failed approaches like the "Nordic Model", which aims to only punish buying sex work, but effectively worsens risks for sex workers, increases deportations of sex workers without papers etc. My concern rather lies with the inherent coerciveness of all transactional relations under capitalism. When you listen to a typical socdem SWERF like German SPD member Leni Braimeyer (surprise, she's also a massive terf), who is pushing for the "Nordic Model" instead of the legalized prostitution we see in Germany today, there is not only a total, ultra-patronizing lack of recognizing the agency of sex workers, there's also a complete obliviousness to the economic conditions that determine how prostitution works in Germany, as yet another form of exploiting the economic imbalances in the EU and supplying German capital with a constant supply of workers who have to take increasingly awful deals out of pauiperization and desparation, as well as an increasingly precarious situation for the lower incomes among the German working class. It's these conditions that give rise to prostitution as an area of mass exploitation, and ending capitalist relations is the only way to amend the problem that a majority of sex workers are in a lopsided economic situation that is the actual threat to their agency and their ability to fully consent.
bought someone's consent
Interesting, I never thought about it like that...
I think the only excusable scenario would be independent service listings, where both parties establish limits and identify whether they're both comfortable prior to engaging in sexual activities.
for one thing, there's way more to sex work than intercourse.
My opinion on them is the same as whatever opinion the sex workers have on them
If you support the sex workers, this is the main answer. If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
Can't make a proper argument- check
Must rely on memes and gifs to communicate- check
On the rare occasion they actually put their big boy pants on and write some text it's super offensive/racist/bigoted- check
Hexbear user confirmed.
If you like them but not their clients how is that supposed to work economically?
The Nordic or neo-abolitionist model exists. Sweden was the first nation to implement it I think. Selling sex is legal, buying is not. Seems to work for them
You've got that backwards. In Sweden, buying is illegal, selling is not. Essentially turning the customer into a rapist and the seller into a victim. And rightly so! Considering that most women selling sex are doing so because of human trafficking, or at least coercion or desperation, it's cruel, immoral, and ironic that they are criminalized in the rest of the world outside of Sweden and the other countries that have followed their model.
Men who pay for sex are the driving force behind human trafficking.
I think you are agreeing with the post above yours. They said that selling sex is legal, while buying is not.
That's exactly what I said. I'll just quote myself here:
Selling sex is legal, buying is not.
Apologies. I swear I reread your comment 3 times, and each time I replaced legal with illegal in my mind. I see it now!
Seems to work for them.
Do you know something I don't? From what I hear both sex workers and johns continue to exist, just like in the old abolitionist/prohibitionist model.
The point isn't to prohibit it, it's to give the prostitute the legal advantage when reporting the john (and thereby rein in the behavior of johns with the tacit threat)
Well that's nice, but I feel like it could also be abused. What if a prostitute (which is one kind of sex worker) threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
It'd probably be best to regulate the entire thing as a legal industry and put in place some sort of watchlist for suspected bad johns.
What if a prostitute . . . threatened to report a john as a form of blackmail?
They already can and sometimes do, usually as honeypots (here I mean the criminal kind). "Blackmail is illegal" and also blackmailing someone being very dangerous are two major elements preventing it. I don't think making buying legal would be a significant factor since usually the blackmail is on the level of social standing, not getting charged with a relatively minor crime (generally a misdemeanor). Furthermore, especially because prostitution exists more in the open in these societies, the prostitute who blackmails would also have her reputation damaged quite severely, to the point that it might not be viable for her to continue her profession if it gets out that she even attempted blackmail -- to say nothing of the fact that, not to beat a dead horse, having someone who absolutely hates your guts (the victim) makes being a prostitute much more dangerous: What if this is one of the old john's friends or someone he hired to hurt you?
"The plight of the johns" is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex. Prostitutes are much more likely to be desperate -- though less likely in these countries than in a place like the US.
Well, there's some good arguments there. But making something you want people to do illegal is certainly counterintuitive and doesn't seem like a sane approach to me.
“The plight of the johns” is also just not a very moving cause because anyone who is worried about getting blackmailed even given all of these factors can just not buy sex.
Ah, so you do want to prohibit sex work. I get that's not what you think you're saying, but prostitutes can't exist without johns, and so it doesn't fall under "support sex workers". Now, abolishing sex work is a thing intelligent, well-meaning people argue for as well, but that's a different conversation.
No, because a) blackmail is just a very poor business model in this case and b) most people don't stand to lose that much over a misdemeanor, especially since the prostitute would also need to prove her case, the John can sue for libel if she fails to, etc. etc. Anyone scared of the fringe chance can just not go, but most people who otherwise would want to go would probably still want to go.
Support prostitutes by means other than being a John. Do a Holden Caulfield if you like and pay for their time to just hang out, idk. The John is instinsically in a position of power by using money to be entitled to sex, and is part of the social violence of coercing desperate people into dangerous and frequently traumatizing* labor.
*look up ptsd rates
Also don't forget how many of these women are already struggling with mental health issues.
In the USA, if you are on disability, you are effectively barred from saving money.
I know of plenty of disabled women who turn to sex work to be able to pay the bills since their meager disability check is not enough to effectively live off. It is all under the table so they essentially just don't report the earnings.
So many of these women really don't need the added awfulness of being a sex worker in their lives, but do it out of necessity of a broken system.
Most of what I know is informed by stereotypes from various facets of American pop culture and not reality so my opinion is not valuable
I'd say share it anyway, could still be a really insightful or useful perspective
She's a hexbear user. We have pronoun tags for a reason. She doesn't state they/them as her pronouns so please edit your post to not misgender her.
Every. Single. Fucking. Time. I point out misgendering and some cissie has the fucking nerve to argue with me why blatantly degendering women, a common smear tactic among British terfs btw, isn't a bad thing akshually. "oH i'M oNlY dOiG tHiS wHeN gEnDeR iSn'T rElEvAnT", the fuck are you talking about, respecting trans people's gender is ALWAYS relevant, you do not get to decide on this. This is our decision alone, to deny trans people the autonomy over their gendered self expresion and gender recognition is a textbook case of transphobia.
To make this perfectly clear: There is ONE, just ONE, correct response when somebody calls you out for misgendering somebody. It's apologizing and correcting your mistake. That's a tiny thing to do and takes a fraction of the time it takes to argue with me, and it will cause you one millionth of the distress you're up for when you act transphobic in my presence. If she would be fine with being they / themed, she would have given they / them as a second set of pronouns. Why is that so hard to understand?
I hope the world treats you with more compassion and respect in the future.
Gee, thanks for your pity, but i don't need that. Most of my friends are cis and i know what it's like when cis people treat me with compassion and respect, as most people are actually capable of that. It's not that hard. They listen when i voice my grievances and understand that i have a different, yet valid perspective on such things than them, and that they can learn something from that to be more inclusive in the future. Probably because they understand that calling out transphobia doesn't mean calling somebody a transphobe. I would've used different language than that if my impression would have been malice instead of ignorance.
Your insistence on ordering trans people around and telling us if we´re allowed to find open misgenderings to be offensive would be laughable if it wouldn't be so disgusting. Pronouns are not a polite request to pretty please tone down your transphobia out of the kindness of your heart, respecting our pronouns is the absolute bare minimum of respect you can show towards us.
I think you are underestimating the desperation of the very poor in austerity states like the US, but you are 100% right that sexpats are scum
Though certainly in different proportions, I think courtesans exist in every country.
I agree with you. I also want you to know that I love the expression "you deserve to be thrown into the pit." What is the pit? I don't know, but I don't want to be there. 😁
What is the pit? I don't know, but I don't want to be there. 😁
https://old.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/k7ehme/the_barbara_pit_an_unknown_bit_of_history_where/
I think it's in reference to the mass graves Tito threw dead nazi soldiers in
I find it weird that someone would want to have sex with someone who obviously does it only for money.
Now that you mention it, isn't it odd that it feels weird? I wonder exactly where the line starts to come into focus between something as innocuous as paying for a meal and something as taboo as paying for sex? Obviously that's a question of culture, but it's entertaining to think about nonetheless...
Like, there's definitely something kind of unusual about this specific taboo. Speaking from the perspective of modern western culture, I'd say that the following things which share some characteristics with prostitution are all individually qualified as being relatively socially acceptable:
- Paying for therapy (i.e.: buying the service of social comfort)
- Paying for a massage (i.e.: buying the service of physical comfort)
- Having a one night stand (i.e.: receiving the service of sexual comfort without buying it)
- Buying a sex toy (i.e.: buying sexual comfort without involving a service worker)
I posit that there's something uniquely specific about the direct intersection of service, money, and sexual pleasure which makes prostitution uniquely uncomfortable for (modern western) people to think about. I might be overthinking it, though. Perhaps these three things are already uncomfortable topics to really think about so we naturally want to resist the idea of combining them?
I know you probably mean prostitutes or "escorts", but aren't porn actors also sex workers? I watch porn all the time, so do a lot of people. I feel sorry for the sad sacks who aren't "allowed" to look at porn because their significant other is so goddamn insecure, the idea of their partner having their own private thoughts scares the shit out of them.
You are correct, but people treat "prostitute" like it's a slur and thereby (wittingly or not) wildly obfuscate any conversation one attempts to have about them and their clientele, etc.
I have very mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I don't think that there's anything inherently immoral about sex work.
On the other hand, a large amount of sex work is not voluntary and consensual.
There are a few sites where (legitimate) sex workers can advertise. Prices vary considerably, but you'll typically see prices starting at $400+ for "full service". They typically have specific limits laid out, what things they do and don't do, and usually require some kind of screening for their own safety. If you go to sites where clients can review sex workers, you can find listings for $50-$100 for full-service sex work with "new girls", frequently Asian. These women--most of the people exchanging sex for money are women---in those listings do not screen clients, do not have pre-stated limits, frequently do not require the use of barriers, and always work for an "agency". It is clear to me that these are not women that are doing sex work consensually. People that frequent these sex workers are complicit in their abuse. (Willing sex workers can and do work through agencies; that makes their client screening less onerous for them. But they still have clear limits, and not rock-bottom prices.)
Given how many women, esp. at the lower end of the pricing spectrum, aren't doing sex work consensually, I would not have a good opinion of a person that chooses to use them. I could not accept someone that knew that they were trafficked and didn't care, or chose to ignore the probability that they were doing sex work involuntarily.
I would have no opinion either way about someone that chooses to use a professional domme; that, at least, is a segment of the market that's unlikely to involved trafficked victims.
I dont care
So long as they treat the women properly, and said women is not being forced to work as a sex worker.
So you are against prostitution in practice but not in theory?
where, which sex workers, and which services? i think men who spend more money on onlyfans than they do on groceries are dumb, i think strip clubs are fucken weird, i think sex tourists probably deserve death, and i think most johns are walking into a minefield of exploitation.
IMO the more that money is involved in anything, the less actually voluntary it is, because we need money to live and plenty of people don't have a lot of options for making money. With sex it's really important for everything to be actually consensual, but paying for it makes that ambiguous, they can't really know, so I see it as creepy and unethical.
Right, if you pay to have sex with a person that's utterly destitute, completely desperate, and has no other options, is that REALLY consensual?
There are plenty of examples of sex workers that are NOT in that situation, but there are just as many (I would guess more) examples of people that ARE in that situation.
I'd be curious to see whether sex workers increase/decrease in a region that implements a universal basic income.
I've known people who are sex workers and they're some of the most talented and intelligent people I've ever met. Replace sex-worker with marketing and that's who they are. There's nothing involuntary about what they do. Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don't want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Unless you consider that my work is non-consensual because I don’t want to do it if I could just survive without it.
Yeah, pretty much, it's one of the worst things about our society and needs fixing in general. It's just potentially extra bad when sex is involved because of its emotional, cultural, etc. significance. I don't mean to suggest all sex workers are desperate victims, I'm sure some of them are well off, have options, and are doing it because they want to, but they all have a business incentive to try to appear that way, so someone looking to hire them can't really be confident what they are doing isn't ultimately exploitation.
Worked night shift at a hotel next to a night club that doubled as a brothel, could talk to the girls who were always taken to our hotel, heard how the dudes talked about the girls they had sex with, i say kill everyone who pays for sex.
And this was supposed to be a "good" place btw.
seriously, i feel like so much of the discourse surrounding the sex industry is now dictated by a small minority of relatively well off sex workers who, probably unwittingly, produce a distorted image of what it's like to sell sex for a living. and through social media, these voices gets amplified both by libs, whose understanding of anything begins and ends with 'listen to x-voices,' and redditor-type men who have a vested interest in expanding prostitution and sanitizing its image, not because they care about sex workers, but because deep down they want to buy sex without having to feel bad about it
