It's just incredible how consistent views are under the western propaganda umbrella. Yeah, we're pretty consistent too, but it's weird seeing it from the outside. There's no critique, there's no self-reflection, there's often no logic or perspective of any kind. They keep yelling "sovereignty" like it's a magic word and they think it means something.
Unfortunately it's also really boring. The same people with the same childish understanding and incurious diet of media saying the same things over and over and over and over. I wish more of our team would disengage. I'm certainly not getting any wiser going through these conversations on repeat and I don't think anyone else is, either.
The fact that they would rather believe this community is on a several years long маскировка op merely pretending to be leftist rather than engage in a minimal effort at self-reflection is mind-boggling. I understand that we are dealing with the most propagandized population to have ever walked the Earth, but it's still stunning to actually encounter the phenomenon in real time instead of just reading up on the abstract concept.
It is pretty wild. I really hope they're taking the piss because the alternative is kind of frightening for what it says about humans.
I think it mainly just says that humans prefer comfort and stability above everything else. These aren't people we're fighting in the streets, it's someone browsing an internet forum while they have their morning coffee. There's no risk to what they do when they "umm acktually" a tankie.
They want to be content, they want their life to be comfortable. They want to put in the least amount of effort possible to keep it that way. The reason Chinese peasants in the 1940s were so eager for theory is because it offered the promise of that stability their lives had been lacking.
As conditions worsen in the west we will start to see fewer and fewer of these status quo defending debatelords, as the status quo will become a less and less defensible position.
I'm certainly not getting any wiser going through these conversations on repeat and I don't think anyone else is, either.
I bet a lot of lurkers are, including me.
I wish more of our team would disengage.
I wish for the opposite. It's always funny to watch these people fume and sputter when they are faced with dissent instead of the clapping seals they're used to. And I do learn a lot from what hexbears and lemmygradians say even when they're talking to someone unwilling to be educated.
Yeah, fair. I guess I've got low morale right now. I'm glad y'all still feel fighty.
I post clapping seals as a response to a fair few of them though? 🤔
(I guess they're technically sealions not seals though)
All comparisons are off-limits. Similes and metaphors. “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?” WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT ROMEO?!? Whataboutism. Moving the wickets. Add hominy. Paper straw person. No true Scotchglass. Love is a battlefield and I don’t care if they’re banderite nazis, I want them to invade my Dumbass region to repel the ruZZians that have me trapped dvda. They’ve really fortified their positions. You should be banned for supporting fashionistas.
I’m incredibly grateful to my comrades in the posting pits. I’ve read so many beautifully written informative posts, and my reading backlog has expanded considerably with all the book recommendations. So even if those nerds aren’t responsive, those posts aren’t just dumped into a void.
I don’t enjoy debating myself, I love watching y’all engage. The real time implosion of lib brains is gold
Ooooh, could you post some of those book recommendations? My reading backlog is hungry for more
Yeah!
What Is Antiracism?: And Why It Means Anticapitalism by Arun Kundnani
Thinking in Systems: International Bestseller by Donella H. Meadows
Debt: The First 5,000 Years, Updated and Expanded by David Graeber
Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo
I have a post it note at home with some more, but these are the ones I’ve acquired already
Thinking in Systems is very good. If you're interested in that stuff, I'd also strongly recommend Complexity: A Guided Tour by Melanie Mitchell. It's a great introduction to the topic that doesn't presuppose much background.
Thanks! I haven’t started Thinking in Systems yet, should I start with Complexity since I most definitely don’t have the background?
They're different, but complementary. Mitchell will give you a bit more of the science fundamentals if you're interested in that stuff. You'd be ok starting in either place, though.
I keep a text file of book recommendations I come across here. It would be a lot longer, but I lost my old version and had to start a new one all over again.
This includes some commentary, that isn't mine, it's just part of what I copy-pasted from the comments of other comrades. Credit goes to them, but so does any blame for misspellings or bad takes.
#BOOK LIST
Michael Hudson - Killing the Host (2015)
The Mass Psychology of Fascism by Wilhelm Reich.jpg
Breaking Things At Work was a solid read and it’s short
Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire
www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/kristen-r-ghodsee/why-women-have-better-sex-under-socialism/9781645036364/?lens=bold-type-books
via www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/why-women-had-better-sex-under-socialism.html
That author also has a whole podcast dedicated to the works of Alexandra Kollontai and socialist feminism called AK-47
The Capital Order yet, but Mattei’s thesis is that austerity isn’t about “tradeoffs” or cutting expenses. It’s about enforcing capital’s dominance of labor.
read SettlersI get it’s a meme, but Gerald Horne’s The Counter-Revolution of 1776 is all the best parts of Settlers and none of the worst.
want a crash course on Yugoslavia? To Kill a Nation by Parenti
A new book by David Michael Smith, "Endless Holocausts: Mass Death in the History of the United States Empire," estimates that the US empire is responsible, or shares the responsibility, for close to 300 million deaths -- making it the most murderous empire ever. (use this when a hundred gorrillion.)
Orcas have incredible social behaviors and trans generational culture. They have been subjected not only to hunting but kidnappings and the pollution of their environments and they know that humans are responsible.
This is not a startling new behavior, this is a revolution.
I mean this sincerely.
Edit: if you like this post, read Undrowned by Alexis Gumbs from AK press
Sartre’s preface to Fanon’s Wretched of the Earth goes pretty hard
We Sell Drugs: The Alchemy of US Empire by Suzanna Reiss
Sacred and Terrible Air (book written to be in same universe as Disco Elysium - only recently translated to English)
recommend that anyone who hasn't read Fascism and Big Business by Daniel Guerin (a leftist) do so. It does an excellent job of documenting the rise of fascism in Germany and Italy in, and leading up to, the 1930s, including how less reactionary liberals were instrumental in giving the fascist liberals* power, and including clear evidence of how the left could and should have used direct action to crush the fascist movement before the fascists crushed them.
I would also recommend "the economy and class structure of german fascism" while you're at it to understand the role of liberals in enabling fascism.
You might enjoy The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi.
I hope that is useful.
Also tagging @charlie@hexbear.net in case you're interested. Your list is now added to my text file too, so thanks comrade.
“As revolutionaries, we don’t have the right to say we are tired of explaining. We must never stop explaining. We know that when the people understand, they cannot help but follow us.”
If it sucks for you, don't do it, or take a break. But the first step in getting anything done is getting people on our side, and that takes effort and attention.
Plenty of minds have changed based on what they read online the last several years. Those "I'm a leftist, but" people who are frustratingly close are exactly who we want to be talking to, because even if they don't appear as such, they're really just one or two realizations away, and they're the most likely to consider what we have to say.
Also, in a lot of cases, the people you're educating aren't the people you're arguing with, they're the people watching the conversation unfold. I've personally learned an incredible amount just from lurking and seeing leftists pushing back on lib takes.
It's exhausting, to peel back the layers of a lifetime of propaganda. We shouldn't all feel obligated to do it. But, for better or for worse, online shitposting does kind of reach some people... eventually.
I was initially optimistic about being reach out to people. But within like 5 minutes of dealing with them, that all deflated and the reason why is one of those "I should've known" reason that's hiding at plain sight. It boils down to the fact that they are mostly Ledditors. A Ledditor has a very specific profile:
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They use Reddit enough that they'll actively search for a third-party app and get mad when that third-party app is taken away from them. Most people would just use the official app or not care enough to quit Reddit over a third-party app.
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They use Reddit enough that they know who Spez and have a strong opinion about Spez. Most people don't know who the fuck Spez is because Spez is a nobody.
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They use Reddit enough that they choose to dive into a Reddit clone instead of just moving on to another social media site like Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and so on.
All this is to say your Ledditor's brain has long since been completed melted by repeated Reddit use. They're the ones who unironically say and upvote every single tired Redditism (Thanks for the gold, stranger, upvotes to the left, I did Nazi that coming) that are a decade old at this point, completely indistinguishable from a bot.
Ledditors act more like Redditors than your average Redditor. That's how fucking bad they are.
And since your Ledditor is more Redditor than your average Redditor, the completely trash opinions that comes with your stereotypical Redditor (basically parroting the US state department) is with them as well. It's stronger with them if anything.
However, not all Lemmy users are Ledditors and not all Reddit refugees are Ledditors either. We have to find them and reach out to them. But Ledditors? They're just dunk tank fodder as far as I'm concerned.
The Redditing class may be divided into three categories
- The petit Redditors
- The middle Redditors
- The big Redditors
In this essay I will
Hexbear Gold comment ! , you just laid it Bare , they a just too Dork .... , simply assuming them "Redditors" is not precise enough they are so much redditors theat they left reddit out of a sense of "Betrayed Love" , for what their "onced perfect Reddit" would become .. they are like l'redditor 3000... They have no actuall critic with reddit besides this 3th party Dork shit..
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Doncha know we love the art of oral cunning linguistics here on hexbear
- Show
The VOLCEL POLICE are on the scene! PLEASE KEEP YOUR VITAL ESSENCES TO YOURSELVES AT ALL TIMES.
نحن شرطة VolCel.بناءا على تعليمات الهيئة لترويج لألعاب الفيديو و النهي عن الجنس نرجوا الإبتعاد عن أي أفكار جنسية و الحفاظ على حيواناتكم المنويَّة حتى يوم الحساب. اتقوا الله، إنك لا تراه لكنه يراك.
They keep yelling "sovereignty" like it's a magic word and they think it means something.
Where was their support for european sovereignty when the US blew up Nordstream 2?
why would russia blow it up when they could just turn off the tap?they will never go there , this is when the "terribal Master" intevenes with kreativity ...
" because then they couldnt blame it on the US and damage NATO , Sweety ? whats the time in Moskau ? "
When Westernposting is indistinguishable from fedposting, you know the propaganda has run it's course
Take breaks and remember that sometimes it's better (as in better for you, but also sometimes more effective rhetorically) to just poke fun rather than go through some elaborate argument with some lib who might not even listen.
This is my take, as well. If I see enough decent talking points have been established by someone else (usually a few of us are already engaged the second a
takes a verbal shit in any given thread) then it's not worth engaging on any level, especially for yourself.You're not going to win when someone has brainworms. If a sufficient argument or counterpoint has been levied, then assume a bystander with half a brain will conduct a logical analysis and at the very least, start to question bullshit liberal talking points. That's the best anyone can hope for.
Salute to those who sacrifice themselves so the libs reveals their brainworms.
There's always apologising and continuing in good faith if you judge it wrong at first, too. If they are talking in good faith, the apology will likely be well received (depending on how hard the dunk, maybe – or maybe it's just the difference between a comic dunk and being rude; but I grew up around sardonic people so…), and a fruitful discussion can still happen.
I think blocked 2 users that were annoying in the Afghanistan Opium thread, and 80% of there posts disappeared (looks like there were a few mega-subthreads).
It's because they're getting used by the same pool of users across instances. Remember though, if we comment on news in another instance it's brigading. Only they are allowed to comment on news outside of their instance
They still have layers to unpack. I remember years ago I thought I was as left as could be online because I was browsing "progressive" subreddits and had liberal views, then I noticed that people kept parroting the same idealistic, vibes based sentiments about everything. This journey of self-reflection led me to ML and finally have strong confidence in assessing matters for what they are instead of the media diet you mentioned
Why are libs like this?
Have you been to r/politics lately? I honestly don't understand why libs keep up with politics. They have been pointing out hypocrisy. Shouting rules are being broken,. Acting as though either actually accomplished anything. And surprise pikachu face when nothing comes of it. Forgets about it a day or two later. Then the cycle starts up again.
You'd think they all suffered some sort of brain damage with how quickly they forget.
Gottem! Good work under-covers team! 
