2016, when Islamic terrorism was still the big bad and western media was praising France for their anti-terror re-education program. this shit sounds a lot creepier than vocational training, too. nothing from Adrian Zenz about France though, curious!
Liberals once again proving that they just don't get it.
They round them up and put them in "re-education" which is actually just "political brainwashing". The point of re-education is that you change people's material conditions by giving them a better education so that you lift them out of the material circumstances that make them susceptible to the extreme islamic tendency. When they have good prospects, good education, know languages, have the ability to do far better work than before the result is that people feel far less inclined to kill themselves or destroy their life in an attack.
This reads like all they think they have to do is bombard people with French "patriotic views" (read: nationalism) and the problem will cease. That's going to do jack shit.
you're absolutely right. according to the r/GenZedong thread, France got into the planning stage of doing it but the policy wound up scrapped before any camps opened
the difference in media response is what I wanted to point at though
EDIT: someone in another comment is quoting info that said they did open a camp with a small number of people before shutting down
Okay so am I dumb or is this not exactly what China is doing? Like, putting the Uyghurs in these education camps to teach them the language and help them integrate into society? Or am I missing some key difference here?
Yeah looking up articles on the French camps, at a high level they seem to follow the same general idea except for the "patriotic duties" part and the fact that the Xinjiang program puts a heavy emphasis on "vocational training" whereas I didn't find any such emphasis with the French camps (they mention that learning trades is part of the program but that's about it).
I suspect the lower level details would be where the main differences are but couldn't really find anything in depth on what the French plan was.
Edit:
Found this https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/centre-de-deradicalisation-en-indre-et-loire-poudre-aux-yeux-ou-projet-novateur_1830505.html
Réveil tous les matins à 6h45, port d'uniforme obligatoire: un pour le sport, un pour la vie du centre, un pour les sorties, et lever de drapeau pour réapprendre les symboles de la République. Se succéderont des cours de religion, histoire, philosophie, éducation aux médias, culture générale... Côté divertissement, les pensionnaires pourront suivre des ateliers de vélo, musique, poterie et même de capoeira ou slam.
They get up at 6:45am and raise the flag every morning (I guess this is what was meant by "patriotic duties"), then get schooling in religion, history, philosophy, media studies, and culture. Outside of schooling, they can participate in various workshops (cycling, music, pottery, caoeira, slam poetry etc.)
Doesn't mention anything about jobs though.
The point of re-education is that you change people’s material conditions by giving them a better education so that you lift them out of the material circumstances that make them susceptible to the extreme islamic tendency.
That's a great idea. Why do you need the camps for that?
You don't. They're not really "camps" and never have been. They just like to call them camps because it sounds bad and evokes a mental image of tents and harsh conditions. Every single facility used in Xinjiang was a fully constructed building and they look like schools.
Good point but it's probably regionally different right? Over here in the UK at least the first thing anyone thinks of when you say camp is the conditions of the pop up migrant shanty camps in France because that's what they see camps referred to as within the media constantly. I imagine that what it evokes in a person's mind is different based on what you hear get brought up the most within the media you're exposed to?
I mean than the post is wrong if the two are not at all comparable, and also i see them constantly referred to as camps here by people who defend them.
Makes me think a few years ago, I saw Chuds saying China had the right idea on what to do to terrorists by locking them up.
It’s real horseshoe hours. Some fash take the Zenz style spin at face value and conclude “this rules”.
lol Americans only know their own fucked up prison system and can't comprehend the idea of government doing anything else than "locking em up"
France is like if an edgy reactionary youtube comic were a country. just the other day someone was beheaded because it turned out he was a teacher and was sharing mohammad drawings with his class or something.
Imagine hearing about a teacher getting beheaded and your first thought going to how edgy he is. Couldn't be me.
I do think the French conflict with political Islam (which has become a regular occurrence there, unlike in, say, Britain or Germany or the US) stems from an aggressive French secular nationalism, an attempt to quite thoroughly impose the French worldview on its immigrants. The quintessential expression of which is French beach resorts banning modest attire. I'm for nudism - but forcing people to UNcover when they don't want to is absurd.
The media describes this beheading as an attack on free speech, but this was a teacher showing deliberately offensive cartoons at a middle school, which understandably offends some parents. This is a kind of free speech fundamentalism - adding deliberately offensive material to the curriculum. If someone caricatures Mohammed - that's their right, not a particularly useful activity, but it's a basic right to draw whatever you want. Publishing deliberately provocative caricatures is a statement in defense of the freedom of speech, which is admirable in one way, but in another way it's doing so at the expense of the vulnerable and marginalized members of society. Does Charlie Hebdo republish materials from Wikileaks? Julian Assange is much more the hero of free speech than Charlie Hebdo.
Bringing those deliberately offensive cartoons into a middle school classroom is awful, awful judgment. It's a potential attack on the dignity of Muslims, who're treated in France just about how Blacks are treated in America. The teacher offered the Muslim students to look away, etc., but that's just another way of excluding them. There's a million other ways to talk about the freedom of speech or offensive material without bringing in materials that have gotten people killed before - of course people will be mad when they feel like their kids are being shown insults targeted at them as if that's alright and good. Save that kind of stuff for a university or a graduate course.
Of course the murder is awful and it's unsurprising that the killer's half-sister had joined IS - the strongest predictor of terrorist participation is having close friends/family do so. But this is the result of free speech fundamentalism going up against Islamic fundamentalism.
For us, Muslims are brothers and sisters. There's zero reason to mock or insult their traditions, however much they may seem alien to us. Communism is about the whole of humanity achieving its hopes and dreams without greater or lesser peoples, not about imposing one view of things on everyone.
What kind of molly coddling nonsense is this. YES there is a reason to insult their traditions, of course there is. And it is precisely BECAUSE it offends. It is important in a free society to be able to challenge ideas about what is held as unchallangeable. And the deification and idolatry of Muhammad by Muslims is one of those ideas that are open to challenge, and the individual hurt feelings of Muslims surrounding that fact is of no more importance than the screeches of Christians when Piss Christ is exhibited or when Life Of Brian was released. Especially because the importance of challenging the sacrosanct nature of Muhammad is highlighted whenever it is done. Kurt Westergaard may be a dick, but he's a dick whose family lives in fear and whose grandchildren are hunted in their own homes by literal axe wielding psychopaths.
And I don't know whether it is appropriate to teach kids in middle school about transgressive art and the nature of blasphemy, but I sure as shit know that the punishment for badly planning a curriculum shouldn't be fucking murder.
Edit:
There’s a million other ways to talk about the freedom of speech or offensive material without bringing in materials that have gotten people killed before
None of the muslim kids in attendance were in danger because their teacher showed them a work of blasphemy. The only one sticking their neck out is the one exhibiting the work, and it is very disingenous to imply that the teacher is endangering his students. Further, the idea of offensive material is best expressed with something that is actually offensive.
Perhaps I've expressed myself unclearly, because you're mostly talking past me.
I've stated outright that blasphemy and offensive art are a fundamental right. Of course murder is wrong, including in this case. I'm juxtaposing Islamic fundamentalism with free speech fundamentalism because I see that as the ideological source of the conflict here, but obviously a violent fundamentalism is worse than a non-violent one.
None of the muslim kids in attendance were in danger because their teacher showed them a work of blasphemy.
That's not what I was saying. The cartoons had gotten violent reactions before - and he went ahead and showed them to school kids. Parents are protective of their kids more so than they are of themselves. He was the one in the most danger, obviously.
I don’t know whether it is appropriate to teach kids in middle school about transgressive art and the nature of blasphemy
Good, you don't know, because that's precisely the question I'm raising. How would you feel if your kid's teacher brought in racist New York Post cartoons, while you yourself feel oppressed by the same racism every day? The parent in the French case called for the teacher to be fired - an overreaction, but the animus behind it I think is understandable. You're an oppressed minority, and your school decides to insult your identity to your kids on top of it.
But that's all the parent did - get angry. Then a fundamentalist shit-for-brains youth heard about the story and snapped. If such fundamentalists didn't exist, then you could insult people's identities to their children all day long. But they do - they're part of the same world system, where France helped screw up the Middle East, armed militias in Libya, Syria, and Mali in recent years, and then benefited from the cheap labor of resulting migrants/refugees.
YES there is a reason to insult their traditions, of course there is. And it is precisely BECAUSE it offends.
This sentence in particular sounds like free speech fundamentalism to me - insulting people for the sake of insulting people. When you do so against people who're already downtrodden, you're preparing grounds either for increased violence against them or for them to lash out with violence at you.
When it comes to dismantling oppressive, backward traditions - insults can be a healthy part of that. But I see zero utility in attacking an image or idea that someone considers holy. Again, you should have the right to do so. But if you bring your insults to someone's home, to someone's child - then you're just an asshole backing someone into a corner because you believe in insults with the same fervor that they believe in their religion.
There's nothing Islamic about the violence of Islamist fundamentalists, which I'm not apologizing for. I'm pointing out that France is poking the hornet's nest of those fundamentalists with its own fundamentalist stick and that it should perhaps stop.
Yes, Western imperialist states profiting off the cheap labor of the refugees they create and then insulting their identities are exactly like rape victims.
Violent Islamist fundamentalists are a scourge, but they're not the most powerful or aggressive entity in this situation.
/r/politics mods ready to ban any mention of this, while on the other tab upvooting xinjiang uighur posts with nary a thought to irony
A faction of the French military tried to overthrow the government through terrorism and assassination in order to continue the war against Algeria once the civilian government concluded it wasn't worth it. So I'd agree that it was a greater threat than random Salafist violence, which has zero hope of toppling the French government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_arm%C3%A9e_secr%C3%A8te
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
No. We're still taking Saudi money for the arms we sell them. This entire situation is the government's fault, there are actual islamists in their "Islam of France" council, and they haven't done anything to this day.
I never dreamed to read a sentence that mentions France, Hitler and Camps in a positive way.
Saudia Arabia has similar glowing praise for their own “re-education camps”
bad compared to what, murdering unknown randoms via drone because their phone was too close to someone else's?
if you ran a country what would your response to CIA-backed terror campaigns be?
(also I'd be careful making an equivalence between vocational training and "forced psychological treatment")
I think the answer to the question was quite clear, my answer for a CIA-backed terror campaign would be not forcing people into reeducation camps.
doing nothing, great plan. when the country is wracked with separatist violence, balkanized, and enslaved to capital exploitation none of that violence will be your fault— because you just sat on your hands and didn't do anything, so you're blameless right
there are as many options as you care to dream up to approach it, but a solution that focuses on material conditions (and lets most students go home on evenings and weekends!) seems worth critically supporting over drone strikes. kind of moot now since apparently the reeducation program ended last December, probably because there's been a big reduction in separatist attacks compared to the waves of bombings and stabbings of the early 2010s. during the same timeframe they've also poured 10s of billions into the region aimed at helping rural poor, and developed infrastructure connections to improve regional trade with the rest of the country. that said I look forward to the day when I can be more critical of AES states because the USA has balkanized or can no longer meaningfully project power beyond its own borders
The camp had a total capacity of 25 people, while at its peak housed 9 participants. By August 2017, the first camp was shut down after concerns from the local community, as well as criticism of the admissions criteria, which specified volunteer participants who had not committed terror offences. Following these concerns, a Senate committee deemed the programme “a complete fiasco”, resulting in the camp's shutdown.
And again, the China worship on here is insanely transparent.
They opened one center, had 9 people in it, and the public response got it shut down.
When you see posts like this on chapo, you know it's being done in bad faith. Free the Uyghurs.
Smh China doing a genocide on NATO backed far-right violent ethnonationalist separatists by using re-education in lieu of prison within their rule of law to improve their material conditions and reduce their susceptibility to the regime change industrial complex. Free the weegees 100 billion dead communism is a fuck. please ignore the military industrial complex funding and the decades long plug and play pattern of fake atrocity porn -> media frenzy over self referential NED funded sources -> regime change -> profit and geopolitical power
Free East Turkmenistan. Long live the counterrevolution of our times
Free East Turkmenistan
Uyghuristan.
Good point. I should word it better next time.
lol literally supporting an ethnostate movement that has already tried ethnic and religious cleansing twice
Glad you brought that up: 2.9 million trapped in modern-day slavery in China
Cool that you are simping for a movement that kidnapped Uyghur women in mixed marriages and forcefully married them to Uyghur men and deflecting when thats pointed out.
Yes, those "barbarians need to be civilized" excuses are the exact same colonial language that's enslaved mankind for generations.
I guess the difference now is just you want to hold the whip.
It's very cool how you are putting words in my mouth to deflect your support of a movement that literally wants to take away legal rights from everyone but Uyghurs, and which considers mixed relationships a tainting of Uyghur blood.
Again, you keep implying Uyghurs are uncivilized Neanderthals. You see what propaganda and dehumanization does to the human mind? We're all brothers and sisters on this planet. Love, not conquer.
Uyghur secession movements are ethnic and religious supremacist movements, both times an East Turkestan Republic has been briefly formed it immediately started to cleanse its territory of everyone not Uyghur muslim, including the Hui. And the descendants of those people are the ones leading free Uyghur movements and the like.
Actually it's the Uyghurs who commit genocide
The ultimate deflection, and an apologist for Uyghur genocide.
This thread is too much for me.
This is literal historical fact, and Xinjiang faced more terror attacks than all of Europe since the start of the 2000s.
We're all brothers and sisters until it's time for you to defend kidnapping women to be enslaved into arranged marriages and the notion of superior bloodlines, right?
after concerns from the local community
$5 says this was NIMBY resistance at having anything Muslim based in the area.
They opened one center, had 9 people in it, and the public response got it shut down.
Yeah this makes us look bad because they will just say this. So I would avoid it
Exactly, how do you compare 9 to 2 million? It's absurd.
Wow its wild how China has managed to cram the entire US prison population into just one area the size of Alaska without any material sign of the massive infrastructure that would demand.
That oriental sorcery sure is powerful.
Man, I didn't think people were so eager to dismiss genocide. For shame.
The good thing about basing things on evidence is that when there is none, you can dismiss things.
And no, pure anecdotes are not evidence in the absence of material evidence, especially not when no one has displayed any physical signs of the treatment/torture they claim is widespread.
Ah yes, is this where you dismiss all the field research and life's work of one of the most respected academics in his field because he's a Christian?
He's an anthropologist
Better than the apologists in this thread...
Yeah, an anthropologist who's entire career has been anti China and anti communist. From Tibetans to the Uyghers, the guys just has a boner for hating on China.
isn't zenz known to be the worst? where are the other scholars backing him up?
Everyone should be open to new information regarding Xinjiang, it doesn't make sense for any of us to feel like we know everything unless we live there. But Zenz isn't just an ordinary Christian, he has very radical religious beliefs that absolutely call his credibility into question. I would want someone more trustworthy to be researching an actual genocide. So from your position it doesn't make sense to leap to his defense, because he could end up hurting the cause of the Uyghurs.
Mask off. I think that China is likely doing pretty bad things to the Uygurs, but I do not trust Adrian Zenz for a second.
