I mean, as an American who knows our history, you're basically asking me to will myself out of existence. I didn't choose to be born here, and they didn't choose to be born there. I can accept that having a rave is insensitive, but the whole goddamned world is on fire. The ice caps are melting, microplastics are in everything, governments suck, and I can't really blame folks for wanting to do something besides watch the motherfucker burn.
Would you choose to go to a rave purposefully right outside the walls of a border detention camp? Do you have parking lot parties down at your local ICE facility? Throw a rager at the closest reservation?
And while the US led genocide is definitely not over, the people in Israel are so much more directly complicit with the furiously churning genocide of Palestine.
I can't know that experience, but what I do know is that there are many, many, many more Palestinians that also seem to share my understanding that murdering people is wrong, or else the Israeli civilian population would have a much bigger mess on their hands.
"Actually I'm just assuming shit about a subject that I don't have any deep meaningful knowledge of"
Thanks for the comment champ! We all appreciate that kind of spitballing about history and societal sentiments around here. In the future you could just shut the fuck up instead of trying to speak for Palestinians on the internet.
Not any worse than implying that every Gazan huddled in dark places praying for their lives under constant Israeli bombardment all support the murder of other people as payback
You know, I'm 99% there with the message we're going with here. I think having a rave outside an open air prison is insane and deserving of scorn, and that the people who died there only had themselves to blame.
That said, I'm going to call bullshit on "revenge is good". Idk, I've been the "retributive justice is poison" guy on here for awhile, and made many posts here about it that have been mostly well received. So I'm going to put my foot down on actively celebrating revenge. Understanding the history and circumstances that cause it? Yes. Blaming Israel/the settlers for it and not Hamas? Yes. Continuing to support the Palestinian cause no matter what excesses take place? Absolutely yes.
"Revenge is good" though? No. Its a regrettable reality. People die in a revolution. Some people are going to be angry enough to go beyond what is purely pragmatically necessary. Its a thing thats going to happen no matter what we do, and we go on supporting the cause anyway. Revolutions are never clean. We accept and understand that, we don't celebrate it.
I'm sorry, but when I see posts like this I get worried. I do not like the idea of fighting a revolution alongside people who are just looking to kill people for revenge. Your motive should be making a better world. We kill because we have to, not because we want to.
I think some people on here read "We make no excuses for the terror" and saw it as license for bloodthirst. But to me, what Marx meant wasn't that we actively revel in commuting acts of terror, its that we recognize the necessity of it and do it because we have to.
You're reminding me of a Mao quote I halfway remember, something about not taking joy in the destruction and violence of a revolution, but recognizing that it's dirty but necessary. Someone smarter than me could probably fill in the blanks, but I agree with your post.
Revenge-driven actions have not historically worked out for the people taking their revenue in the long run for eitherthem nor the cause. I'm with the Palestinian diplomats and journalists putting the violence in context without saying its good.
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge to know that spree shooting and raping bystanders is fucking wrong. A child knows that's wrong. An adult is just better at lying to themselves about it.
This isn't a spree shooting. It's a coordinated military action, where bystanders will get shot, because that is the nature of war, all wars. As for the raping of bystanders, we will see what the record says, but I highly doubt any claims coming from either the U.S. or Israeli media about that occurring. There have already been claims of beheadings and infant killings, none of which have been substantiated with evidence thus far, but all of this stuff smacks of 'oriental brown-skinned hordes' tropes. I have seen the videos of bystanders being shot, and I would be utterly shocked if they weren't being shot, especially given the usual Israeli treatment of bystanders, even during times of supposed 'ceasefire'.
However, comparing this to some sort of independent actor 'spree killing' like what occurs in the U.S. is some truly dense shit.
This is probably the most rational response I've received, thank you.
I can respect that the raping might be misinformation, but what about the kidnappings? IIRC, HAMAS has confirmed it alongside US and Israeli intelligence. And this is probably going to smack of bothsidesism, but I'm wildly unimpressed with the Israeli government's seeming policy of seeking to maximize collateral damage whenever possible. They're a bunch of shameless authoritarian fuckheads with no regard for life. I don't see it in a different light when HAMAS does it, though. I'm sure they have their reasons, but that's just it, any fool can justify murder to themselves; the Nazis weren't walking around telling themselves "wow, the Jews don't deserve this", and neither were the American military when they were leading the Native American genocide. Right now, the Israeli government's justification mill is running full tilt. I'm sure the CIA are masters of convincing themselves that they're justified in their actions. So, claims that it's justified ring a little hollow for me.
Is there any truth to the idea that there were off duty IDF present at the rave? IIRC, Israel is a conscription country, so I'm wondering if there's real truth there or if it's just that there's basically IDF members everywhere.
And your morality wasn't crafted while living your entire life in an outdoor prison while Israel targets civilians, your friends, and family every fucking day of your life. They don't have to play by better rules than the enormously equipped genocidal state. Shit sucks, but Israel has very predictably brought this upon themselves and no one should flinch at all when it comes to supporting Palestine over this, or else you never really did. This is how liberation is won, this time you're just seeing the reality of war through a cell phone.
Let me just go ahead and fail that purity test for you. It took me a long time to come to a conclusion about this subject and it wasn't fully cemented until this conflict broke out. Millions of Palestinians refuse to spill blood. The Israeli state has encouraged funding HAMAS as part of their long term plan to prevent two-state solution viability. You can't build liberation on the backs of dead bystanders any more than the Nazis or the US or the Jacobins did. "But it's justified when we do it, you just don't understand" is a bullshit rationale that's older than dirt and twice as worthless; Jesus, how many times must the CIA have said that very thing to themselves over the years?
It took me a long time to come to a conclusion about this subject
....
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge
lol
lmao
for real though just stop what you're doing here. People are fighting for liberation and you have the ability to shut the fuck up from your cozy imperial core internet connection. You live in the country that has materially supported more genocide than any other in existence. Feel the urge to inject "but murder is bad" into the liberation struggle? Yeah, that's shut the fuck up time. You would condemn every liberation struggle in history with this shit.
You know, I always wonder about these type of comments. Are you someone who's actually lived the kind of experience you're speaking for, or are you comfortably sipping a coffee while you write out some performative outrage, smirk, and think "this comment will show them"?
You know as an American you can join anticolonialism efforts. You didn't choose to be born in a settler colony but you can choose to resist it. You absolutely can and should involve yourself with anti-imperialism.
You shouldn't fall into nihilism. Things may seem hopeless, but we're not dead yet. Plenty of work to do.
They're commenting on a leftist forum, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that that indicates at least a desire to be involved in such things in the real world.
I have had some comments replying to me before, implying that what happened at the rave is what needs to and should happen to all colonists, because clearly I don't understand what decolonisation means (even though I am someone whose been involved in décolonisation activism in the past and at no point was my forced removal from North America or murder part of the discussion).
I mean, as an American who knows our history, you're basically asking me to will myself out of existence. I didn't choose to be born here, and they didn't choose to be born there. I can accept that having a rave is insensitive, but the whole goddamned world is on fire. The ice caps are melting, microplastics are in everything, governments suck, and I can't really blame folks for wanting to do something besides watch the motherfucker burn.
Would you choose to go to a rave purposefully right outside the walls of a border detention camp? Do you have parking lot parties down at your local ICE facility? Throw a rager at the closest reservation?
And while the US led genocide is definitely not over, the people in Israel are so much more directly complicit with the furiously churning genocide of Palestine.
What you don't have a rave with the boys outside Gitmo or Abu Ghraib?
No, but I also wouldn't fucking murder people who went to that party either.
What if you were one of the inhabitants of the ghetto who had been treated like animals for decades?
Don't answer. There is no way for you to possibly know the suffering they have endured, and what a human might do in that scenario.
I can't know that experience, but what I do know is that there are many, many, many more Palestinians that also seem to share my understanding that murdering people is wrong, or else the Israeli civilian population would have a much bigger mess on their hands.
"Actually I'm just assuming shit about a subject that I don't have any deep meaningful knowledge of"
Thanks for the comment champ! We all appreciate that kind of spitballing about history and societal sentiments around here. In the future you could just shut the fuck up instead of trying to speak for Palestinians on the internet.
Not any worse than implying that every Gazan huddled in dark places praying for their lives under constant Israeli bombardment all support the murder of other people as payback
If I was being bombed by settlers, I would want them dead. Do not act like this is a purity fetish competition. Revenge is good.
You know, I'm 99% there with the message we're going with here. I think having a rave outside an open air prison is insane and deserving of scorn, and that the people who died there only had themselves to blame.
That said, I'm going to call bullshit on "revenge is good". Idk, I've been the "retributive justice is poison" guy on here for awhile, and made many posts here about it that have been mostly well received. So I'm going to put my foot down on actively celebrating revenge. Understanding the history and circumstances that cause it? Yes. Blaming Israel/the settlers for it and not Hamas? Yes. Continuing to support the Palestinian cause no matter what excesses take place? Absolutely yes.
"Revenge is good" though? No. Its a regrettable reality. People die in a revolution. Some people are going to be angry enough to go beyond what is purely pragmatically necessary. Its a thing thats going to happen no matter what we do, and we go on supporting the cause anyway. Revolutions are never clean. We accept and understand that, we don't celebrate it.
I'm sorry, but when I see posts like this I get worried. I do not like the idea of fighting a revolution alongside people who are just looking to kill people for revenge. Your motive should be making a better world. We kill because we have to, not because we want to.
I think some people on here read "We make no excuses for the terror" and saw it as license for bloodthirst. But to me, what Marx meant wasn't that we actively revel in commuting acts of terror, its that we recognize the necessity of it and do it because we have to.
You're reminding me of a Mao quote I halfway remember, something about not taking joy in the destruction and violence of a revolution, but recognizing that it's dirty but necessary. Someone smarter than me could probably fill in the blanks, but I agree with your post.
Mao agreeing with me is cool I'm going to tell my girlfriend.
Mao is famously quoted as saying "Hexbear user Autismdragon is cool, and fun to hang out with". Frankly, this is what inspired me to read more theory.
I'm not as cool as Mao but I'm with you too.
Revenge-driven actions have not historically worked out for the people taking their revenue in the long run for eitherthem nor the cause. I'm with the Palestinian diplomats and journalists putting the violence in context without saying its good.
fair enough perhaps
I don't need deep, meaningful knowledge to know that spree shooting and raping bystanders is fucking wrong. A child knows that's wrong. An adult is just better at lying to themselves about it.
christ it's like you're trying to not get it lmao
This isn't a spree shooting. It's a coordinated military action, where bystanders will get shot, because that is the nature of war, all wars. As for the raping of bystanders, we will see what the record says, but I highly doubt any claims coming from either the U.S. or Israeli media about that occurring. There have already been claims of beheadings and infant killings, none of which have been substantiated with evidence thus far, but all of this stuff smacks of 'oriental brown-skinned hordes' tropes. I have seen the videos of bystanders being shot, and I would be utterly shocked if they weren't being shot, especially given the usual Israeli treatment of bystanders, even during times of supposed 'ceasefire'.
However, comparing this to some sort of independent actor 'spree killing' like what occurs in the U.S. is some truly dense shit.
This is probably the most rational response I've received, thank you.
I can respect that the raping might be misinformation, but what about the kidnappings? IIRC, HAMAS has confirmed it alongside US and Israeli intelligence. And this is probably going to smack of bothsidesism, but I'm wildly unimpressed with the Israeli government's seeming policy of seeking to maximize collateral damage whenever possible. They're a bunch of shameless authoritarian fuckheads with no regard for life. I don't see it in a different light when HAMAS does it, though. I'm sure they have their reasons, but that's just it, any fool can justify murder to themselves; the Nazis weren't walking around telling themselves "wow, the Jews don't deserve this", and neither were the American military when they were leading the Native American genocide. Right now, the Israeli government's justification mill is running full tilt. I'm sure the CIA are masters of convincing themselves that they're justified in their actions. So, claims that it's justified ring a little hollow for me.
Is there any truth to the idea that there were off duty IDF present at the rave? IIRC, Israel is a conscription country, so I'm wondering if there's real truth there or if it's just that there's basically IDF members everywhere.
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And your morality wasn't crafted while living your entire life in an outdoor prison while Israel targets civilians, your friends, and family every fucking day of your life. They don't have to play by better rules than the enormously equipped genocidal state. Shit sucks, but Israel has very predictably brought this upon themselves and no one should flinch at all when it comes to supporting Palestine over this, or else you never really did. This is how liberation is won, this time you're just seeing the reality of war through a cell phone.
Let me just go ahead and fail that purity test for you. It took me a long time to come to a conclusion about this subject and it wasn't fully cemented until this conflict broke out. Millions of Palestinians refuse to spill blood. The Israeli state has encouraged funding HAMAS as part of their long term plan to prevent two-state solution viability. You can't build liberation on the backs of dead bystanders any more than the Nazis or the US or the Jacobins did. "But it's justified when we do it, you just don't understand" is a bullshit rationale that's older than dirt and twice as worthless; Jesus, how many times must the CIA have said that very thing to themselves over the years?
Comparing people fighting for liberation to the CIA is some of the most galaxy brained shit I've ever seen.
....
lol
lmao
for real though just stop what you're doing here. People are fighting for liberation and you have the ability to shut the fuck up from your cozy imperial core internet connection. You live in the country that has materially supported more genocide than any other in existence. Feel the urge to inject "but murder is bad" into the liberation struggle? Yeah, that's shut the fuck up time. You would condemn every liberation struggle in history with this shit.
You know, I always wonder about these type of comments. Are you someone who's actually lived the kind of experience you're speaking for, or are you comfortably sipping a coffee while you write out some performative outrage, smirk, and think "this comment will show them"?
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youre in such a bubble you can't even imagine that the 'other' also have internet
And what would you recommend they do? Try to starve louder?
Even the ones who were off duty IDF?
You know as an American you can join anticolonialism efforts. You didn't choose to be born in a settler colony but you can choose to resist it. You absolutely can and should involve yourself with anti-imperialism.
You shouldn't fall into nihilism. Things may seem hopeless, but we're not dead yet. Plenty of work to do.
They're commenting on a leftist forum, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that that indicates at least a desire to be involved in such things in the real world.
I have had some comments replying to me before, implying that what happened at the rave is what needs to and should happen to all colonists, because clearly I don't understand what decolonisation means (even though I am someone whose been involved in décolonisation activism in the past and at no point was my forced removal from North America or murder part of the discussion).
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