I see all sorts of vegan stuff posted here that doesn't provoke strong, negative reactions. Obviously you're going to get strong, negative reactions when you post deliberately provocative stuff (that's far from original, to boot) and then double down on negativity when people react exactly as you were hoping they would.
Oh it literally does. Shit like this turns more people off of veganism than it converts. It's just really immature, it reminds me of the cringe one liners I would say once I started getting into anticapitalism.
The type of people you invite to a party once and then never again.
Yeah, as internet leftists it's a core belief of ours that bullying does not, in fact, work.
Fr though I was omni, got bullied, and now I'm vegan.
I used to support Medicare for all but then Bernie supporters were mean to me online :(
No, this is exactly the same tone policing concern trolling that reactionaries do, that gets made fun of here so often.
How would you define tone policing, and how is it distinct from any criticism of tone whatsoever?
Say your buddy wants to convince your org to do some mutual aid project. He's going to make some remarks at your meeting tonight and he gives you his notes to look over. You think he's got a good idea for the project, but he's planning on insulting everyone right out of the gate and being as abrasive as possible when he takes questions.
Are you tone policing him if you say that's a bad idea?
Bernie didn't win, so we should be open to the idea that trolling people online might not be the most effective communication strategy.
Besides, being an ass should be reserved for chuds, not people who might be persuaded to agree with you. No one wants to be part of a group where everyone's just shitty to each other all the time.
I always think back to that "if you don't talk to them, someone else will" image that used to circulate. Reactionary ideas should definitely be called out and deried, but putting in the time and effort to reach out to people who are at least possibly sympathetic to your views is one of the small (but important) things any leftist can do.
You've missed out on cornering the reactionary vegan market tbh. As a capitalist, this is terrible modus operandi. Start advertising a lentils box or something.
A capitalist turning down profit? I'm shocked I tell you! :shocked_porky:
The difference is that in this scenario the person starts believing the good thing, then turns away from it without a convincing argument. That indicates they never believed in it.
With Veganism, you have people starting as non-vegans, getting approached by vegans who are not making a good faith effort, not treating them with respect, make no progress, and everything stays the same.
No, this is just that famous subtlety that v*g*ns are known for
I'm so owned. I've never thought that incredibly original thought before right now.
Wait until you find out what has to happen to keep your power running.
Absolutely, that's why I'm going to be a condescending prick at any mention of watching a movie or playing a video game.
Edit: Oh no, do we not get to talk about the genocide & ecological destruction required to keep your video game habit going :(((
that’s why I’m going to be a condescending prick at any mention of watching a movie or playing a video game.
This but unironically
It was more of an anti g*mer and movie/marvel nerd joke than anything else tbh
I was also joking, as socialists, we are insufferable enough as it is lol
we are insufferable enough as it is lol
ARE YOU SURE?
:sicko-hyper:
If your goal is to dunk on people, go for it.
But do it in the appropriate place. If you're not looking to actually change minds, stick to c/vegan.
Can the next struggle session be funny? This one is annoying and full of reddit-tier condescension.
Where is this pretence you keep refuting that dash was hurt or betrayed by an unexpected backlash to his posts? All I see is him highlighting how laughably dumb and defensive people were being.
Do you go to every post on the dunk tank and say "why are you pretending this was unexpected?"
We make fun of bad takes. It's pretty common here. I'm just not seeing that extra leap you're taking to dishonestly pretending that it's unexpected. And the even bigger leap to tone policing. How is making fun of somebody for equating veganism with being pro life tone policing?
I really liked the dachshund:fish meme.
Kinda reminded me of the "I think my dog is sick" meme
This is why the subreddit was better because at least you got new users to cycle in and out with slightly different takes, posting styles, etc. Everything's stale as fuck here and it's basically the same people making the same arguments. People didn't get worn out on the struggle sessions as much even though they were probably bigger on the subreddit. It's literally like every 2-4 days here there's a new one and people trying to be out-offended by the other.
"You can't be a leftist if you don't support animal rights" is also a hot take. It's absurd and wrong to say you can't support worker's rights, trans rights, minority rights, etc without also agreeing on an unrelated issue. It's also historically illiterate (see CW tab if you dare). You can advocate your own views without being a hostile asshole, without imposing purity tests, etc. If you have a problem with your fellow leftists, engage them in good faith. Just because they have problematic views doesn't mean they're not your comrades. Dogposting isn't an argument. It's just hostility. I've tried using arguments like these before. I can assure you they don't work.
CW: Animal Cruelty
:lenin-shining: :bonk:
Lenin killed bunnies. Brutally. Beat them to death with a stick.
:rosa: This girl wanted to raise Geese. :honk: Lock them in a cage, forcefeed them, kill them for their liver. The worst form of meat farming.
:trot-shining: A hunter. Beat rodents to death with a stick for lunch money, threw rocks at pigeons, and went hunting with Lenin.
This is what happens when you force your shitpost circlejerk deliberately designed to be offensive ourside the circle. Yeah. You'll get pushback.
This stuff is designed to do that. To be offensive, to be triggering, to make people unconfortable. It's not even aimed at meat eaters. We have people on here who hunt or are exposed to cultures where eating dogs is normal. They're not having their minds changed. That's because none of these posts even try to explain why you should have empathy for animals. They only try to induce a visceral reaction in people who love dogs.
Meanwhile, I don't eat meat. I find the concept disgusting. I find the sight of meat disgusting. But I own a dog. The mental image of dogs being butchered made me feel physically sick. This ruined the site for me. I can't even look at my dog without thinking about it. I unsubscribed from c/food because of it, but it won't go away. Why is that not locked to the appropriate community? Why does it not need a content warning? Why do we have comms if not to filter out content we don't want?
I came to the conclusion that vegans were morally right a long time ago, so I don't feel the need to argue. Eating meat is not really defensible morally on pretty much any level. And you can at least adknowledge that if you eat meat.
Everything I own, essentially, was produced with slave labor at some point in its supply chain, but it's not like I stan slavery to make myself feel better about it
New bit: The anti-vegan 'meatarian' identity but they just really like slave labor goods to anger people
Oh, it's the leftist "no ethical consumption" argument as to why they do animal cruelty. That's a classic.
Damn, dude, you can't even let someone agree with you huh
Yes, cows are equal to e coli, there is no possible suffering of a non human animal.
People spending the whole day making extremely hostile posts about rules about food tends to make my eating disorder rear its head so I end up spiraling for awhile, mainly
I think the vegans are correct, but I also think meat tastes good and overall beating people over the head telling them their consumption choices (which is basically the only choices they get to make day to day) are bad is alienating.
I like how you completely disregarded my other point though lol but okay.
If you really wanna get to my point I'm mexican, I like meat, tons of my cultural dishes use meat, I'm not gonna give up eating it just to make white people feel better about the shitty things their governments have done
I’m still confused.
Clearly
have you seen the shit white people eat? their “cultural cuisine” includes at least as much meat, with hamburgers, hotdogs, etc.
No "the hamburger" isn't a cultural dish.
but still, you’re reducing this to race in such a bizzare way
I'm not surprised you can't comprehend what I'm saying whitey. I know considering the point of other races isn't your strong suit.
do you exclusively fix the ac systems of vegan people’s summer homes?
No they typically eat meat too, they're just more wasteful in one lifetime than an entire village could ever be.
No “the hamburger” isn’t a cultural dish.
:michael-laugh:
Reverse cultural chauvinism isn't actually going to help anyone. You guys have to divert the conversation from the harm of animals to other tangential issues every time like this. Just chill out.
Not who you are replying too, but the vast majority of militant vegans that I've met are upper middle class white people (not all, mind you) This group has a tendency to impose it's culture and values on other people, while also being responsible for upholding systems of oppression.
This group has a tendency to impose it’s culture and values on other people.
:this:
Like that post oh here where a vegan told an indigenous person that didn't like their bit to go "read settlers". Like wtf. Then another vegan accused the indigenous person of "playing the race card". How completely tone deaf can people be?
it's more like "damn those privledged people are trying to shame me for my own culture, while they're responsible for most of the suffering in the world. they should probably just shut the fuck up and deal with their own issues"
I know. I don't actually think that person is dumb, I just don't think they've ever thought about how their views would be perceived by a different race. I don't want to make it seem as if I don't care about the climate crisis or that eating meat is a life or death struggle for me, I've been trying to eat less meat for health reasons, but it can be irritating hearing that me and mine should do something about this when I fix affluent white people's ACs all the time and they couldn't give a care in the world.
It's just frustrating is all.
again, im not even the person when who you were originally replying to, but I still think that many non-white people's responses to white people acting as if they have any sort of moral superiority on any position is instantly telling them to shut the fuck up. The correct thing to do is to talk about veganism without being such a douchebag about it, you won't get the same negative response.
Why do yall become instant reactionaries when anything negative about white people crops up
why the fuck are you on this website lmfao, in what world did i say anything remotely close to that?
hey dash :im-vegan: but what, specifically, are you expecting them to feel shame for with regards to eating meat
surely then you can understand how quickly that slides into an "ethical consumption under capitalism" argument, and how that's not going to sway everyone
What I'm saying should be completely obvious. When faced with the climate emergency that is largely the fault of Western white people for a multitude of reasons, why should I adjust my consumption habits? When the average American family's carbon footprint dwarfs anything my family could produce, when your billionaires burn enough fuel to make a villages footprint a rounding error, when your people are going to use the climate crisis as an excuse to vilify my people and shun them when the crisis your people created is at your doorstep.
Why should I give a fuck?
I agree this shouldn't be a personal decision. People shouldn't be made to feel guilty about their consumption, or anxious about having to do a moral choice in the first place. All of the consumption choices should be ethical and sustainable. Unfortunately, they are not, so the individual lives with the burden.
The basis of traditional mexican food is plants based. Maíz, frijol, calabaza, chile, tomate, nopales, arroz, etc. Veganism is not incompatible with your culture, it's probably one of the easiest ones to convert.
The point is not to make white people feel better, it's to do something about the problem, to change the culture. Do you at least agree that (certain aspects of) the culture needs to change, and that that involves you?
People shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about their consumption
Yes they should
You absolutely know what the fuck you're doing when you post the dog shit. You can't deliberately be provocative and shocking and then take umbrage when people are provoked and shocked.
I'm not interested in getting in a debate about veganism with you, and I didn't really give a fuck about the dog posts. But this whole act where you're going "All us widdle vegans did was compare your normal eating habits to eating your own pets and now you're MAD??? You must be reactionary 😡 😡 😡 " is some real bullshit. If you're going out of your way to make people mad, then you need to accept the consequences of making people mad.
In that case it's weird that you went with (and doubled down on) the absolute least effective way to do it.
Because religions are systems of worshiping magic, and have no core logic. Religions, unsurprisingly, have also been used to justify pretty egregious actions against people too.
holy shit this really is the most r/atheism fucking struggle session
can we do something funny again like outdoor cats? this shit sucks
this site will forever remain some obscure sect of mentally ill ex-redditors.
Love mocking my fellow users as mentally ill.
Yeah Western/US culture instils us with all kinds of stupid, shitty, harmful values. I don't come to Chapo dot chat to see people be all fragile when they're challenged
Obviously we understand the context, we were all raised with it.
The point of swapping out comparable animals is to challenge those cultural norms in the same way we were that changed our thinking.
Except not everyone was raised with it.
Your gross and idiotic strategy makes me embarrassed to have been raised vegan.
Its okay to be murdered if you were selectively bred by humans to maximize profits, okay. What about dogs bred to be eaten then?
Bruh literally chows
Also again, human ego exerted onto a different species isn't the end all be all of whether or not it deserves to live
Thousands of years of culture?
Yeah, logically speaking there is no difference between eating a cow or a dog. But one has been bred as livestock for thousands of years and the other has been bred for companionship.
It angers me when I see bits on my front page that are joking about me. The bits are supposed to be about other people! That's why I come to this echo chamber.
Vegans are 100% correct and I've been slowly switching to vegan things (I'm already vegetarian) when I can, but that's taking into account that vegan choices tend to be more expensive and are something I consider a privilege to be able to do. When I say expensive, I mean all the various kinds of expense : some things can be literally more expensive, but in most cases it's expensive in terms of time and energy (researching, finding places to buy specific things, cooking) which are often forgotten.
A lot of people work and struggle and while yes they could be vegans, and yes a lot of things "are not more expensive or even cheaper", it's really blind to not realize the amount of time and energy you need when you're not already vegetarian/vegan. It takes time and effort, enough free time and/or mental energy to research, to prepare, learn to cook, etc., and it's helped by better material conditions in your life and a wider societal change in consumption a lot more than by pointless provocation.
In my own experience, even though I already agreed completely, it still took me a lot of time (and was helped when I stopped working for a while so I could get my head out of the grind and actually work on myself and change some habits) to change things, change habits, find what I like and where I could buy things I need without them being stupidly expensive (let's not ignore the fact that capitalism is very good at adapting and there is a HUGE grift of "healthy"/vegetarian/vegan products that are extremely over-priced and actually have much, MUCH bigger ecological or social footprint) while balancing the fact that I don't have that much time or energy to constantly get ingredients and cook them, find replacements to things I'm used to eating or already know how to do, I barely know how to cook to begin with, and I don't like cooking.
Don't get me wrong a lot of the "bullying" is fine and good, and I agree a lot of this site has an ugly reaction to veganism and it's fucking weird, but still.
Thank god veganism is correct and has very strong arguments on its own that would have always convinced me anyway, because I certainly wasn't convinced or helped in that path by online vegans.
Uhhh, because the conflation of leftism and veganism requires a set foundational premises that are not universally agreed upon on the left.
Did you post this in main to get a divisive reaction? Did you think this post would be convincing? Do you really think shame, on a dwindling internet forum , already struggling to keep its identity would enable any of your goals?
Best post was someone doing an existential nihilism to try and own the vegans ™️. Such a bizarre take.
frankly anyone on a socialist shitposting site that is also trying to argue life has no inherent value should be chased out of town
I know it's a bit account, but this reminds me of those "leftists" who use "no ethical consumption under capitalism" as an excuse to do whatever the fuck they want, no matter how exploitative or bad.
It wasn't even existential nihilism which is about the purpose of life rather than the value within it, but a fallacious kind of moral nihilism that still makes moral assertions that you see from 24-year-old dudebro pseuds. The worst kind of posts.
To be honest I didn't read the post past the line where they said "life has no intrinsic value" so I just jumped to existential nihilism. Still really weird.
